Matthew Murray: nghtmrchld26…In His Own Words (Updated)
I’ve compiled many of Matthew Murray’s online comments to try to get inside his head. Many individuals seeking to break from religious ideology lack the means to visualize their rejection of it in ways which would bring balance and a healthier world view. In the end, the place they arrive is often little more than a rejection construct populated by the same extreme concepts they seek to escape…ever steeped in the vividly defined notions of darkness which they have been instructed to resist.
As most of you know, it has been determined that Matthew Murray was the shooter in two incidents at religious organizations in Colorado which left five people dead…including Murray.
The following entries are Matthew Murray’s postings on an internet site where ex-pentecostals share their thoughts and experiences. Aside from the first entry, I’ve attempted to organize them in date order so the reader is able to follow the progression of his thoughts and his obviously spiraling hopelessness and depression. Let me be clear…I don’t offer this observation as a defense for Murray’s actions…they cannot be justified. Rather, it is an opportunity for us to learn more about the dynamics which lead these individuals to such heinous acts.
The first entry includes a music video which I think is fundamental to understanding the mechanics involved in these individuals attempts to dissociate themselves from their religious upbringings. I contend that the imagery in this song…though seen by Matthew and others as a means to rebel against or reject their religious ideology…is in fact still attached to the constructs and notions that were found in their faith.
Further, the imagery in both (their prior faith and their newfound anti-faith) is a manifestation of extremes…extremes that often preclude these individuals from achieving some semblance of balance in their lives. In essence, in order to achieve the freedom they seek and to break the ties of the belief system they’ve been raised to follow, they move towards the very images and ideations which they were presented as representative of the “other side”…images and ideations which are no more real than the ones they seek to reject.
Unfortunately, they often lack the means to visualize their rejection of faith in ways which would bring balance and a far more healthy world view. In the end, the place they arrive is little more than a rejection construct populated by the same extreme concepts they seek to escape…ever steeped in the vividly defined notions of darkness which they have been instructed to resist.
I intend to offer additional observations and analysis of these writings but I wanted to first get them published so readers have an opportunity to ruminate on Murray’s state of mind as well as the circumstances which contributed to his tragic decision.
Subject: From the Cradle to Enslave - Music Video
Posted By: nghtmrchld26 Friend
Posted At: 10/29/07 8:52 pm
Reply
I saw this band in concert recently, They kicked a**.
Some people say this is “just entertainment,” but for me, and some of my friends, the songs bands like this sing are VERY REAL, it’s kind of something we can “see” and can feel and in a spiritual sense and we’re able to “connect” “into” the music. Very powerful song…..
Editor’s Warning: This video contains adult content, violence, & is rather disturbing.
Cradle Of Filth - From Cradle To Enslave
NOTE: I’ve included more of my own thoughts at the end of the posting.
much, much, more…
Comment Thread Number One:
First Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 3
(1/14/07 2:17 am)
Reply
the “Council for National Policy” and evangelicals
I remember growing up in pentecostalism/evangelicalism, we were always told to support the republicans/conservatives and to “hate those evil satanic democrats.” Jesus never said to put our trust in any political leader, yet we see so many christians trying sooooo hard to believe that “America was founded on fundamentalist evangelical christianity and we must turn america back towards God!!!(the evangelica/fundamentalist/pentecostal version nontheless)”
This ties right into what is known as Dominionism.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cou…nal_Policy
www.sourcewatch.org/index…nal_Policy
www.au.org/site/News2?pag…9&abbr=cs_
I find this “Council for National Policy” interesting.
One of the things I want to know is:
Why do these evangelical/pentecostal leaders condemn “the occult”/”freemasonry” yet they themselves are part of or at least completely ignore a group that itself has secret membership, secret meetings, and is invitation only.
Of course, this secretive christian/evangelical “CNP” group raises many questions…….
Second Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 39
(8/6/07 2:20 am)
Reply
Re: the “Council for National Policy” and evangeli
According to a WorldNetDaily columnist Rick Warren said in November 2006 that he was a member of a group called the “Council on Foreign Relations.”
www.worldnetdaily.com/new…E_ID=53688
Note that I am not necessarily saying that Rick Warren and the CFR are bad or evil.
Third Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 37
(8/5/07 4:46 pm)
Reply
Re: the “Council for National Policy” and evangeli
Here is an ABCNews article on them:
“Meet the Most Powerful Conservative Group You’ve Never Heard Of”
abcnews.go.com/Politics/s…170&page=1
_________________________________________________
Mister Crowley…….
Comment Thread Number Two:
First Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 12
(3/14/07 8:52 pm)
Reply
pentecostal insanity regarding media/entertainment
Growing up, TV, Internet/computers, video games, music, Christian contemporary music, movies and books were all extremely restricted. All those things carried this……mystique about them. They were like these mythical things imbued with incredible power straight from Satan, all run by Satanist covens operating out of Hollywood, Washington D.C.(when Bill Clinton was in office), and abortion clinics. Except there was one problem…………the senior pastor and his close church friends and their families all watched TV/Cable TV, had the internet, listened to at least some non-Christian music and all listened to CCM, video games(including those satanic “T” and “M” rated ones), and all, especially the senior pastor, had “R” Movie collections. Me and some of the other non-elite church youth and members asked about these contradictions but never received any answers.
I still remember how we were told that “The Simpsons” was a very evil and Satanic TV show with the intent of causing people to leave Christianity (as if that’s a bad thing). As a teenager my mother had the TV tuner removed by a TV technician so that it could only receive from the AV inputs, meaning, could only watch VHS and DVDs. I remember me and the other church youth would go over to the Senior pastor’s house and ask to watch the very same movie that his 10 year old son or daughter had told us they’d watch and be told “sorry guys, that’s rated ‘R,’ it’s not Godly.” Of course we’d ask “but then why do you have it?” Sometimes he’d lie, other times he’d just say “sorry…you can’t.”
I remember wanting to listen to Christian music and be told by my parents and other church members that we couldn’t, EVEN THOUGH the senior pastor’s and other church leader’s families did.
Internet was treated as one of Satan’s special weapons in the “end-times” to promote sex(which everyone knows is of the Devil…..) Everyone was terrified that one of us teenagers *might* get a glimpse of a naked body and become demon possessed. This always confused me for how can viewing what God designed be satanic at the same time? And if we “lust” are the demons able to read our thoughts and somehow *know* to seize upon us? Isn’t it possible to see nudity without *lusting* somehow? Of course, the senior pastor’s two oldest children, one male the other female, got someone pregnant and got pregnant; the other two younger ones were proven to be sexually active. Other church leader’s children were sexually active.
Music was VERY restricted of course. We got all kinds of lectures on how Satanist covens had some kind of backmasking technology and were partnered with all the artists, including Iron Maiden, Motley Crue, Britney Spears, Madonna and N’sync. Amy Grant and Michael W. Smith were said be in on it too…even though the “elite” members of the church listened to them. Growing up, I was restricted to listening to….sermons on the radio or through tapes.
Books were VERY restricted. We were only allowed to read Christian books and forced to memorize the bible. When Harry Potter came out we were all given lectures about how “we’re living in the end times and Satan is trying to capture the children and make them all witches!!!!” I knew of a few people who got harassed for letting their kids read Harry Potter.
I remember with all these different forms of media it was like I was always in Mission Impossible. We were either at church or being brainwashed in Christian home school. When we did have free time…we were either forced to pray, read the bible, do chores, or…..well nothing since we were not allowed to do anything. We were all being trained to “become the future of Christianity.” “The chosen generation that is going to turn America back to God in these last days.”
“The chosen generation who are going to become great prophets and pastors and evangelists and missionaries in the world.”
“The chosen generation who are going to take over the world and do away with everyone else’s false satanic religion and take dominion until Jesus returns!!!!!!”
Well, I got all fed up with the insanity, hypocrisy, conflicting doctrines, the and lack of absolute answers in regards to “salvation,” heaven and hell and other theological issues, the child abuse, brainwashing, lies, gossip, scandals, threats and fear mongering. I got tired of always hearing “oooohh, you’re saved by grace, not by works!” “Everybody loves you! Jesus loves you!” only to hear about how I was going to hell for watching “The simpsons” or could lose my salvation and could never be certain if 30 years from now I might lose it due to some odd sin and die in an accident and end up in this eternal hell preached to us day and night.
Me, I found a new Law to live by and I realized……I don’t have to be abused nor submit to these liars and their lies nor do I have to be afraid of this make-believe hell and false theory of salvation which no fundamentalist Christian could ever give solid answers on.
Me and many others are waking up.
We will rise up above and against these abuses against humanity.
Men will no longer be ruled by fear and superstition, oppressed by bigotry and tyranny.
______________________________________________
Every man and every woman is a star
Edited by: nghtmrchld26 at: 3/15/07 8:43 am
Second Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 13
(3/16/07 7:21 am)
Reply
Re: pentecostal insanity regarding media/entertainment
Yeah Diamond girl, when I was a teenager my mother would do a pat down to check for music, DVDs and video games whenever I came out of an electronics store like Best Buy or Circuit City. I’d still obtain things anyways, it was like getting drugs from a drug dealer, EVERYTHING had to be done in secret. lol
I remember getting thrown around the room and hit while getting interrogated about whether or not I had video games and DVDs. Then there were the constant interrogations by the church pastors. @#%$ hypocrites.
I remember having to listen to everything in secret, at very low volume levels or with headphones, whether it was video games, TV, DVDs, or music/radio. Every day was like Mission Impossible, as even ONE mis-step and it could be all over.
My mother would search EVERYWHERE on a regular basis. You’d have thought I was hiding methamphetamines(which her favorite pastor, Ted Haggard was found guilty of) or something serious….but it was all over DVDs, Cds, and video games, the issue of drug abuse or the like never came up. And when she confiscated something, she’d almost never tell me. She’d always pretend like she had no idea what I was talking about, until I had her cornered with evidence….so much for “Liars go to the lake of fire.”
Edited by: nghtmrchld26 at: 3/16/07 7:28 am
Comment Thread Number Three:
First Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 29
(5/30/07 10:37 pm)
Reply
Crying all alone in pain in the nightmare of christianity…
welcome to our nightmare…….
Crying all alone in pain losing all reserve….I can’t wake up out of this nightmare……..
Insane? Am I the only @#%$ with a brain?……..
Maze…psychopathic daze…I create this waste
Back away from tangents, on the verge of drastic
ways…can’t escape this place…I deny your face
Sweat gets in my eyes, I think I’m slowly dying
Put me in a homemade cellar
Put me in a hole for shelter
Someone hear me please, all I see is hate
I can hardly breathe, and I can hardly take it!
HANDSONMYFACEOVERBEARINGICAN’TBREAKOUT!
Lost…ran at my own cost…hearing laughter, scoffed
Learning from the rush, detached from such and such
Bleak…all around me, weak…listening, incomplete
I am not a dog, but I’m the one your dogging……
I am crying here in a buried kennel
I have never felt so final
Someone find me please, losing all reserve
I am @#%$ gone, I think I’m @#%$ dying
HANDSONMYFACEOVERBEARINGICAN’TGETOUT!
You all stare, but you’ll never see
There is something inside me
You all stare, but you’ll never see
There is something in you I despise
Cut me! show me! beat me! molest me! abuse me! @#%$ me! hate me! break me! Rape me! kill me!
Here is my purity……
Enter this nightmare…..I am willing and able and never any danger to myself
Knowledge in my pain, knowledge in my pain, just….@#%$ acknowledge all my pain, acknowledge all my pain…..knowledge in my pain……
Or was my tolerance a phase?
Empathy! out of my way!
I can’t die…..I can’t die…..I can’t die…..trancing out into another dark reality as the pain fades away….my purity…..
You all stare, but you’ll never see
There is something inside me
You all stare, but you’ll never see
There is something in you I despise…..
have you ever seen God?……have you ever seen God?
have you ever……
__________________________________________
Mister Crowley…….
Second Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 30
(5/31/07 6:01 pm)
Reply
Re: contact me please
I’ve already been working with counselors. I have a point to make with all this talk about psychologists and counselors “helping people with their pain”…….
it’s so funny how many people want to help you and love you and counsel you and “work with you through your pain” when there’s money involved……heck I can go down to the bar, hand out money and drinks and have people who “love” me and want to listen to me…………I can go to a “prophetic retreat/workshop” for $150 or more and get “personal prophetic ministry”……ask all these people who “sincerely love and care” to counsel and work with and be there for someone in pain for FREE…….aint gonna happen…..money or the lack thereof certainly changes things….
Me….I want something REAL, not more games. My ex-church will say they all love me, everyone loves me don’t they? I had JW’s knock on my door and say that Jehovah loves me and that they’d love to have me meet with them…..but do they have any REAL answers? “Love” in our commercial and christian America is just a word to get people to convert, to get people’s money…..
___________________________________________
Mister Crowley……
Third Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 32
(5/31/07 6:36 pm)
Reply
Re: Crying all alone in pain in the nightmare of christiani
FYI This was written in early 2006
Comment Thread Number Four:
First Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 58
(9/7/07 9:13 pm)
Reply
“Prophetic Child”
Since I was at least age 6 my mother and her church friends have always told me about how my birth was “foretold.” They say that while I was still in my mother’s womb a “prophet” told my mother that I was to be, quote, “a prophet to the nations” and something along the lines of the next Billy Graham/Peter Wagner.
They said that the following verses applied to me:
Mat. 12.18 and Ezk. 36:26-28
Basically, they believe that I am their “chosen one” for “the end times” and according to the Ezekial passage they believe that I am going to go back to their church/system.
The problem right now is the fact that it appears that they are always going to pursue me throughout life(and they have said so), as I am supposedly the “chosen one.” As far as I can tell they did not treat the other youth the same way.
Well, I don’t want to be their “chosen one” at all. I just wish I could find some way to wake up from this nightmare.
__________________________________________
Why are you trying to make fun of me?
You think it’s funny but what the f*** do you think it’s doing to me?
You take your turns lashing out at me…………
Mister Crowley……..
Second Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 59
(9/8/07 3:01 pm)
Reply
Re: “Prophetic Child”
All alone crying in this nightmare
You and me we have no faces
Soon our lives will be erased
Do you think they will remember?
Or will we just be replaced
Oh I wish that I could see
How I wish that I could fly
From these things that hang above me
To a place where I can cry
They don’t see us anymore
Without love as they had promised
And no faith for what’s in store
Oh I wish that I could see
How I wish that I could fly
From these things that hang above me
To a place where I can cry
Where are all these feelings hiding?
Dancing in and out my mind
Burning up all that I long for
Feeding me till my decline
Where are you? My soul is bleeding
I am searching, am I blind?
All alone and bound forever
Trapped inside me for all time
So what can it be?
No one hears me call
Echoes back at me…..
No one’s there…..
To all these nameless feelings
I can’t deal with in my life
To all these greedy people
Trying to feed on what is mine
You’ve got to fill your hunger
And stop @#%$ with my mind
I know it’s time to leave these places far behind………….
________________________________________
You break my back, but you won’t break me
All is black, but I still see
Time’s going to wash away all pain
Third Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 60
(9/8/07 3:46 pm)
Reply
Re: “Prophetic Child”
Yeah.
And I was supposed to keep this “calling” completely secret from outsiders. Like even other christians were not supposed to know if they were not a part of the “church elite” at that church and with my mother.
_____________________________
Mister Crowley……
Fourth Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 87
(11/4/07 12:14 am)
Reply
Re: “Prophetic Child”
In this prophecy, they also believe that it was “prophesied” that I would rebel, but then RETURN to their church and that’s helping to drive me crazy.
They will always be targeting me,hoping and praying I’ll come back, waiting for some weakness(financial, health, or otherwise) so they can move in and re-convert me. Sometimes I fear I’ll end up going back. Sometimes the depression gets so dark, and trying to live in the “real unsheltered world” gets so hard I start to think about returning back to what is at least “familiar,” into a system I at least know how to behave and live in. I know there is a way out of this nightmare
It’s just so f***ed up that this is the whole reason I was born.
The virgins are feeling cheated and there is an exit here,
Don’t say it isn’t it’s true……
I went to God just to see………
____________________________________________
No salvation..ha ha….and no forgiveness…..ha ha ha…this Nightmare is beyond your experience
Fifth Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 88
(11/4/07 1:36 pm)
Reply
Re: “Prophetic Child”
ok yeah, all these crazy memories. I can’t fully remember and if i try too hard the room will start spinning and I’ll go crazy. but yeah…..
Yeah I agree. No matter how hardcore cult-like these end of days dominionist pentecostal charismatic church members want to be…I’ll never give in. They can make fun of me, harass me, and even break my back…but they won’t break me.
I’m working on a way out here, time is going to wash away all pain.
_____________________________________________
Yesterday I was dirty wanted to be pretty
I know now that I’m forever dirt
We are the Nobodies, want to be somebodies
Comment Thread Number Five:
First Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 38
(8/5/07 6:26 pm)
Reply
Drowning in despair
you raped the soul from the child in me……..
Crying all alone
The tears flowing down my face in a beautiful stream
The lovely misery and lonely darkness surrounding me
As I see everyone going on with their meaningless vain fake lives
All the posers and wannabes
All the abusers
Crying all alone
Cutting myself
High off the pain and darkness
Seeing so many fakers hating me
So many of my friends who have abandoned me
So many spiritual pretenders who failed to help me.
I’m your nightmares come true
You think you can punish me but you fail to see
That I’ve lived through a thousand nightmares
And all your worst Christian fears are coming true
Walking down these hallways
Of mirrors and sadness seeing myself
Crying all alone as everyone takes their turn
Raping all that I am
Cutting myself killing this pain
Someone help me please
I can’t get out and I am slowly dying
Come and sing with me
This beautiful song of sadness and misery
Cutting ourselves
Crying awash in crimson
Come and sing this song…
As we die and leave this miserable life behind
Can you not see the elegant beauty?
Rays of light like gold silk flowing throughout this place
Beautiful tears of crimson streaming down our bodies
Our work is done here, we’re going home
Let us fly away into the dying sunset
Can you not hear this beautiful song?
As all the pain fades away
Taking your last breath
As the blood and pain drains
Leaving everyone……..left
To die in their misery and hypocrisy
We’re going home to a beautiful place far away from here
________________________________________________
It’s all in your head……it’s all in my head…..
I tried…you lied to me for so long…..
Everywhere I go there’s a sense of it…….
freak on my antics and give me a choice
Doesn’t matter if I give a @#%$….. it’s @#%$ that you gave me
Edited by: nghtmrchld26 at: 11/11/07 11:04 pm
Second Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 50
(8/21/07 11:42 pm)
Reply
Re: Drowning in despair
Thanks for understanding DiamondGirl!
Come closer for myself and let your angels fly away.
As I am forgiven by them……my angels
Feel mine cleansing touch….fall through your worlds…
fall…..onto me
Let me caress you….
Let me take you through my worlds
Let them taste you with this night
with this tongue of this might…..
Perish……onto us…feel your mind weaken and your cold body withered…us crying…gasping for relief
let us… take off far into this night
far away within distress to die….
Your mind….losing all sanity
Leaving these bloodstained ashes
Tears streaming down your face
Fade away as we leave this hopeless place
Step into the light on the other side…….
Crying in distress…..
Some of us were only born to die
Learning lessons that become us…..
Let us take off far away into this night of distress…..
Edited by: nghtmrchld26 at: 8/23/07 12:09 am
Third Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 52
(8/28/07 1:30 am)
Reply
Re: Drowning in despair
I just wish I could find where to leave all of this hurt behind.
______________________________________________
The downward spiral…..
Fourth Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 67
(10/1/07 1:08 pm)
Reply
Re: Drowning in despair
But why care about a world that doesn’t care about me anyways? And why go on living in a world that doesn’t want me?
Caring never felt so lame inside. There’s just no answers.
Everyone has the same unoriginal s*** to say:
“Have you seen a therapist?” “Have you tried medications?”
“Have you tried thinking positive happy thoughts about the world?” “Maybe you should try counseling?” “Maybe you should try to just not be this way” “Just try taking one day at a time work towards your degree in college” “Don’t worry, it will all get better”
Guess what? Believe it or not…..I’VE TRIED ALL THAT
People then usually assume that I only tried prozac(or some other drug) for two days and got upset that it didn’t “work” and they say “oh well, you need to give it more than a couple of days to work”….I don’t know how 8 months is only a few days…but maybe you f***ers who can only come up with lame ass answers need a good ass kicking
These lamers will also say “well maybe try a different therapist?” or “just…….keep trying”
Yeah….that’s right, this nightmare terrifies you crack addicts, other people claiming to be depressed, all you people who think you’re so depressed over some stupid divorce……you people tell me yourself you’re terrified of this kind of depression and of this nightmare. No one has any answers. I’ve talked to lots of people about this, and they first say “oh well….you couldn’t possibly know about REAL depression…..I’ve been through alcohol and drug addiction, and recently a divorce, my parents kicked me out at age 15, I can’t go to college because I don’t have money and I have kids to support……..etc…..etc…….” and then they always say “but I know it’s always going to get better and that I have a lot to live for”
Well @#%$…..you’re in much better shape and have a lot more hope than I have…… and then I’ll tell them “I’m not sure if this is REAL depression….but here’s what I’m dealing with and how I’m feeling……”
The response so far is always the same. The person who claimed to have it so much worse than me, is suddenly shaken, and *tranced* out and given a glimpse of The Nightmare that me and my friends have grown up in. This person who first said “oh no honey, not to discount what you’re going through but I’m dealing with some dark depressing things a young person like you doesn’t understand” is now telling me in a quivering voice….”uh…..that’s……pretty dark writing…..and creative too…uh…..have you thought of counsling?” I said “well yeah, didn’t really change anything” “well I don’t really want to hear about depressing things and…” “But I thought you said you were really depressed?” “yeah…but…honey…I don’t know what to tell you about….lets just change the subject”
Sorry but this isn’t some pity story of where someone got touched in the wrong place once or twice or where some girl got raped only twice….this is The Nightmare that just goes on and on and me some of my church friends just cannot even fully remember what all happened, much less understand why……
This is also the downward spiral here….no one has any real answers, only lame answers and fear of what me and my friends grew up in, and fear of the depressing aftermath.
On the positive side, that fact that we’ve survived this long means we’re a LOT stronger than most people, especially these lamers who are terrified of my poetry. We’re stronger than these pentecostal Youth With A Mission assholes who said “you can’t be writing down your feelings, especially not about depression.” We’ve proven that we’re a lot stronger than these sick bastards in the charismatic and pentecostal movement.
Welcome to the Nightmare
____________________________________________
You can’t kill me because I’m already inside you
Fifth Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 71
(10/6/07 1:37 am)
Reply
Re: Drowning in despair
here we go again mother******s
trancing out into a nightmare of sadness and insanity as flashbacks come flooding in and taking over, shaking and all alone in this nightmare…….
You raped the soul from the child in me…….
Bow down to the land of the free
Bow down to your world that made me me
Bury the nails into the one like me
Consecrating the lies and exalting false prophecy
Tearing apart souls of man and all his goals
Offer benedictions and wills to plague your…
Souls….is made, in a so-called God
The taste of sulfur and rain
Your churchianity christ now turns on man
And brings him pain
Bow down to a lying clergy of sodomy
Bow down to the world that rejected me….
A gun to the temple of a world enslaved
by the lies that bind us to a faded hope
And a promise of salvation that is only a lie
Ensures the perversion that you try to hide
will become as dust that will fade in time
To take this world of hate
Of torture, our fate
Will rest in hands
That sow the seeds of rape
____________________________________________
Mister Crowley……what went on in your head?
Who’s mistake am I anyways?
Edited by: nghtmrchld26 at: 10/6/07 1:53 am
Sixth Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 75
(10/17/07 1:02 pm)
Reply
Re: Drowning in despair
“I can’t remember anything, can’t tell if this is true or fake
Deep down inside I feel this way
This terrible silence stops me
Now that the war is through with me
I’m waking up and I can not see
That there’s not much left of me….nothing here but pain now” - Metallica - One
Quietly these colours will fade
but soon they will be as one.
for a moment i will stare
into this deep saddened sea
and will suffer the death’s fright
under these waves emotions lay,
still never they’ll return
as they are laid to rest.
Into this one lonely life,
which, perhaps is growing
painfully…
into life to die…
all life will be gone
leaving myself and all this pain…
into the spheres of emotions…
emotions…
I thought…….
there’s nothing left for me,
anymore…. everything is gone
nothing left to feel nor to understand
I did not want to live my life
nor did i even want
to live for my death…….
strong it is indeed….life…
strange to be born for death….
_____________________________
Standing here hollow…..
Seventh Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 76
(10/17/07 3:09 pm)
Reply
Re: Drowning in despair
You and me we have no faces
Soon our lives will be erased
Do you think they will remember?
Or will we just be replaced
Oh I wish that I could see
How I wish that I could fly
From these things that hang above me
To a place where I can cry
You and me, we are all alone in this
They don’t see us anymore
Without love as they had promised
And no faith for what’s in store
Oh how I wish that I could see
How I wish that I could fly
From these things that hang above me to a place where I can cry
Where are all these feelings hiding?
Dancing in and out my mind
Burning up all that I long for
Feeding me till my decline
Where are you? My soul is bleeding……..I am searching, am I blind?
All alone and bound forever
Trapped inside me for all time
So what can it be?
No one hears me call
Echoes back at me…..
No one’s there…..
To all these nameless feelings I can’t deal with in my life
To all these greedy people
Trying to feed on what is mine
You’ve got to fill your hunger
And stop f***ing with my mind
I know it’s time to leave these places far behind………….
______________________________________
Why are you trying to make fun of me?
You take your turns lashing out at me……
what the **** do you think it’s doing to me?
Eighth Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 77
(10/19/07 2:48 am)
Reply
Re: Drowning in despair
Inside and around I see misery, suffering
A new level of depth for my depression
Thought I could only climb from now
Unable to see below its depths
Got used to it so that it wasn’t as bad…….
Now on my dark ledge I am falling further
Where are my friends? Someone grasp me
But no one reaches for I have nothing left to give them
My use for them is gone and so is their respect for me
Hitting a deeper level I crash hard
My anger screams, sorrow and hate contorting together
In a fit my temper explodes, tearing my hair, punching my face
Ripping my skin to release it from within
Screams of sorrow increasing my hate
Sentences flash through my mind of all that they said
Of those I regard that hurt me
Emptying my soul, devouring my will
I’m alone and always will be
I’ve known no one who hasn’t hurt me and often with intent
I walk through crowded streets of faceless people
Their whispers haunting me
Trapped in a void with myself who’s not me
My knowledge and power are all that I own
My compassion is destroyed, my hate free to explode
Now I will always destroy those who try to hurt me
______________________________________
Why are you trying to make fun of me?
You think it’s funny but what the **** do you think it’s doing to me?
You take your turns lashing out at me, I want you crying with your bloody a** in front of me.
Edited by: nghtmrchld26 at: 10/19/07 2:56 am
Comment Thread Number Six:
First & Only Entry:
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 93
(11/12/07 7:25 pm)
Reply
Eight Marks of a Mind Control Cult
Please note that cult groups can be found in both christian and non-christian realms of religion and spirituality(including “esoteric” type groups)….be safe out there people………
Eight Marks of a Mind-Control Cult by Randall Watters
Brainwashing has become almost a household word in the last two decades or so. In 1961, Robert J. Lifton wrote the definitive book on the subject, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, after studying the effects of mind control on American prisoners of war under the Communist Chinese. Lifton outlines eight major factors that can be used to identify whether a group is a destructive cult or not. Any authoritarian religion should be held up to the light in order to determine just how destructive their influence is on their members. Judge for yourselves.
Milieu Control
“Milieu” is a French word meaning “surroundings; environment.” Cults are able to control the environment around their recruits in a number of ways, but almost always using a form of isolation. Recruits can be physically separated from society, or they can be warned under threat of punishment to stay away from the world’s educational media, especially when it might provoke critical thinking. Any books, movies or testimonies of ex-members of the group, or even anyone critical of the group in any way are to be avoided.
Information is carefully kept on each recruit by the mother organization. All are watched, lest they fall behind or get too far ahead of the thinking of the organization. Because it appears that the organization knows so much about everything and everyone, they appear omniscient in the eyes of the recruits.
Mystical Manipulation
In religious cults, God is ever-present in the workings of the organization. If a person leaves for any reason, accidents or ill-will that may befall them are always attributed to God’s punishment on them. For the faithful, the angels are always said to be working, and stories circulate about how God is truly doing marvelous things among them, because they are “the truth.” The organization is therefore given a certain “mystique” that is quite alluring to the new recruit.
Demand for Purity
The world is depicted as black and white, with little room for making personal decisions based on a trained conscience. One’s conduct is modeled after the ideology of the group, as taught in its literature. People and organizations are pictured as either good or evil, depending on their relationship to the cult.
Universal tendencies of guilt and shame are used to control individuals, even after they leave. There is great difficulty in understanding the complexities of human morality, since everything is polarized and oversimplified. All things classified as evil are to be avoided, and purity is attainable through immersion into the cult’s ideology.
The Cult of Confession
Serious sins (as defined by the organization) are to be confessed immediately. The members are to be reported if found walking contrary to the rules.
There is often a tendency to derive pleasure from self-degradation through confession. This occurs when all must confess their sins before each other regularly, creating an intense kind of “oneness” within the group. It also allows leaders from within to exercise authority over the weaker ones, using their “sins” as a whip to lead them on.
The “Sacred Science”
The cult’s ideology becomes the ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence. The ideology is too “sacred” to call into question, and a reverence is demanded for the leadership. The cult’s ideology makes an exaggerated claim for possessing airtight logic, making it appear as absolute truth with no contradictions. Such an attractive system offers security.
Loading the Language
Lifton explains the prolific use of “thought-terminating cliches,” expressions or words that are designed to end the conversation or controversy. We are all familiar with the use of the cliches “capitalist” and “imperialist,” as used by antiwar demonstrators in the 60’s. Such cliches are easily memorized and readily expressed. They are called the “language of non-thought,” since the discussion is terminated, not allowing further consideration.
In the Watchtower, for instance, expressions such as “the truth”, the “mother organization”, the “new system”, “apostates” and “worldly” carry with them a judgment on outsiders, leaving them unworthy of further consideration.
Doctrine Over Person
Human experience is subordinated to doctrine, no matter how profound or contradictory such experiences seem. The history of the cult is altered to fit their doctrinal logic. The person is only valuable insomuch as they conform to the role models of the cult. Commonsense perceptions are disregarded if they are hostile to the cult’s ideology.
Dispensing of Existence
The cult decides who has the “right” to exist and who does not. They decide who will perish in the final battle of good over evil. The leaders decide which history books are accurate and which are biased. Families can be cut off and outsiders can be deceived, for they are not fit to exist!
_________________________________________
Drowning in despair…..
END COMMENT THREADS
Editors note:
Take notice of the last line of this last entry and it’s positioning. In the preceding comment thread number five, “drowning in despair” opens each of Matthew’s comments as the subject. In this last entry, “drowning in despair” closes his comment…a minor detail which I contend has great significance and may not have actually been done consciously by Matthew. I see it as a progression to an ending…and given Matthew’s final diatribe invoking the words of Columbine which I’ve not included as they were already published in Denver newspapers and online…the placement of these words seems to foretell his submittal to the inevitability of what is to come.
If you look at each entry he makes, he, for the most part, includes a small statement below the dotted line. Most of them add to what was stated below the line in the prior entry as if to signify an almost accounting like summation…an alternate train of thought (his more hidden thoughts) which I suggest is the essential dialogue taking place at his core which he doesn’t divulge until his final “manifesto”.
UPDATE I:
Matthew’s posting detailing his experience at Youth With A Mission (YWAM):
nghtmrchld26
Friend
Posts: 25
(5/8/07 5:34 pm)
Reply
Re: My YWAM Horror Story
I did my DTS at YWAM Denver and Dale Lambert was my DTS school leader. I witnessed all kinds of insanity. Men would be making out with other men in the hallways, listening to all kinds of “metal music”(non-christian), smoke pot with each other while off base, there were rumors of sexual activity, both hetero and homosexual.
Not that any of those things are bad…but…….
Why was I told that I couldn’t be a missionary because I wasn’t “social enough”? I was told that I was “an introvert.”
Everyone else got to go on their outreaches except for a few who lied about smoking (cigarettes).
The authoritarianism and hypocrisy is outrageous. The YWAM leaders would always believe that they had some special “connection to God” to be able to dictate and rule over student’s lives. I’m not talking about simple rules like “no drugs allowed” but rather “we prayed and we feel like the spirit says that you’re not loyal enough” or “we prayed and we feel like God says you’re not to go on any outreaches.” For just asking the question “why are we having a special group meeting tonight?” I was told “we prayed and we feel that you have a spirit of rebellion and if you ask or question anything any further we may have to send you home…” I was told that I could not watch an “R” movie at a movie theater even though several of the other students did…and yes, the leaders knew full well about it.
The lack of knowledge and thinking is another story. Almost none of those people ever questioned the things they were taught. They always assume it’s true and in matters of contradictory teachers and teachings, they’d just believe and follow whatever everyone’s emotions were feeling. I remember “holy spirit week” where they tried to get everyone “baptised in the holy spirit.” I went along with it just to stop people harassing me and asking me “are you still speaking in tongues? you better not stop doing that or you might lose the holy spirit…..” I now know that the Divine Spirit is within all of us no matter what our religion is. Very few actually had answers in regards to salvation or “hearing the voice of God.” A lot of the “prophesy” in those groups was/is nothing more than lower psychism. Sure, they can be accurate once in a while, but even then it’s on a lower level. Just because someone is psychically/spiritually sensitive doesn’t mean they know how to exercise it or have a trained mind. It also does not mean that they understand spiritual principles. It only means that they are sensitive to the lower astral levels.
1 person did get sent home for making an amateur sex video of homosexual nature….6 or 7 people were involved but only that one person got sent home. I know 3 or 4 others were sent home simply for smoking a legal nicotine cigarette. A few people got “talks”(slaps on the wrist) about their openly homosexual behaviour in front of everyone. They all went on outreach. For the record, when I was told by the YWAM staff 1 week before I was to leave on outreach that they did not want me on outreach, I asked them if I had done anything wrong. I ask them to clarify their reasons and they did make it clear to me that I had not commited any “sin” or done anything wrong…except for the one time I questioned, but that that was not the reason they were sending me home. They made it clear that they were sending me home because they “prayed to God” and felt that I was “not social enough” and was “an introvert.” After having left I of course found out how true all those words about “we all love and care about you very much” and “we do care about you.” really were…….
I never heard back from them and when I got home….well…..back to the usual christian insanity at home and my parent’s church.
The fact is, in YWAM, and christianity, it’s all about the Beautiful People. No, it’s not just “one group of bad christians” but rather….almost every group of christians except for a few open minded non-evangelical churches. If you’re an extrovert, and popular, then yes, there is plenty of love waiting for you in christianity. If you ask questions and want to understand things and/or desire a real and deep spirituality, or if you’re just not popular…well…….you are considered as one of the horrible people and are either going to be abused or kicked out by “holy spirit love filled” christians. it’s all about……
the Beautiful People……..
If any YWAMer believes that I’m on the wrong path and that they have “The Spiritual Truth” and answers then feel free to send me a message, I’d love to discuss these things with you and discover “truth”(If I indeed have not found it yet).
____________________________________________________
Mister Crowley……
Edited by: nghtmrchld26 at: 5/8/07 5:46 pm
UPDATE II:
Matthew appears to have posted at another site under a different name…Chrstnghtmr. The first posting below links to a video made by Ricky Rodriguez…a young man who subsequently committed a murder-suicide.
This first entry appears to expose his intentions more than many of the previous entries…which makes sense since this entry is dated December 9, 2007. This batch of entries are ordered from newest to oldest.
First Entry:
Thread: Ricky Rodriguez’ experience of growing up in the Nightmare of Christianity…… (Healing) (Posted on: 09 Dec : 03:00)
This kid went through abuse in christianity just like me and my friends…..he was even intended to be their next “prophet”…just my church said to me…….that I was going to be a “prophet to the nations” for their christianity
We’ll have to see how accurate their prophecy really is
Watch the video he made:
Editor’s Warning: The video is lengthy and disturbing.
http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Ricky_Rodriguez_video
Sure, many christians will say “oh, that’s just a cult” as if the pentecostalis/Bill Gothard/Charismatic crap I was raised in wasn’t?
Ricky’s words:
“I used to think a lot about suicide. It’s, it actually, believe it or not, it should have started a long time ago. It should have started when I was fuckin’ born actually, but, to tell you the truth, it didn’t really start in earnest until the infamous Teen Training happened.”
I had it good in many ways. I didn’t get fucked in the !@#$%, you know, I was a guy. A lot of you girls, phew, crap, I can’t even compare my stories with yours. But that’s not what this is about. We’re not sitting here comparing—oh you got it worse than I did—you got it more times than I did- because its not about that. There’s so many other kinds of abuse that went on, that to some of us were just as bad, some of us, to some of us it wasn’t, and some of us didn’t have it that bad. So I’m not gonna sit here and say “oh yeah, I had it the worst or I didn’t” because it really doesn’t matter. It should never have happened at all. To anybody. That’s the point. So that’s when I started contemplating suicide. And I’ve been fuckin’ thinkin’ about it ever since. Because man, goddamn it, after Teen Training—!@#$%, it’s like all hell broke loose—we’re just never the same.
So now this is interesting because, um, I don’t think most fam- other Family kids- can relate to this, because yeah, they were abused. But one thing I don’t think they were that much is secluded. And that really can !@#$% you over, because if you don’t have that, um, mirror, if you will, of other kids your own age, um, even kids older than you, you know, older siblings, whatever, friends, then uh, it really fucks ya up.
And I was reading, ah, reading an article about how there were, how some people say, it was one of those conspiracy things. Ah, ah, I can believe it- that it’s possible. And who knows? Anyway, they were saying how they were doing experiments on prisoners in the States- in the States- for the last, you know, for the last 40 years or something. Um, about that, trying to see how they can break ‘em, and then translate those findings into the general populace. Ah, modified of course. I don’t know if it’s true or not. It was interesting reading anyway. But that’s what happened to me- not having that mirror of other people to hold up- and, you know, see how I would relate to them, you know those formative years, if you’re only around fuckin’ perverts, these people are fucked in the head and try to !@#$% you over. Wow, I didn’t even have fuckin’ TV for god’s sake.
“Anyway, ah, so I always figured that, and I always still think about suicide, and I try to push it away. I’m successful for awhile, but it’d always come back. Started coming back more frequently, those thoughts, and uh, and I just, I just wanted it to end. That was my hope. And that was also my fear- that when I died I would just want to flatline and nothing else, cuz, I would not wanna have to go through in another dimension what I’m going through here, and what I had been through.
Now I’m not so sure about that. I don’t really know what to think, but I think there’s enough evidence, if you will, ah, to at least, uh, to at least make one stop and consider that we may not believe in God, but I don’t, at least certainly not the Christian fucked-up God who’s a big fuckin’ dick that he wants to stick up everybody’s !@#$%. But, but I don’t know. I’m starting to think that life goes on- and that fucking scares me. That really does scare me more than anything because, cuz, I don’t know, I don’t want it to go on. I want it to just be over.
Second Entry:
Re: We are the Nobodies (General) (Posted on: 07 Dec : 11:36)
Sounds like one of the Nobodies became a Somebody…sure he’s still hated by everyone, that is obvious, but at least now he’s a somebody…..and he’s left a world that didn’t give a sh** about him to begin with
_____________________________________________
I went to God just to see and I was looking at me
Third Entry:
Thread: Insane times growing up in homeschool (Home Life) (Posted on: 01 Dec : 15:13)
Me and this caller, “Devin on DMLive” were raised in homeschool and we both went through some insane stuff growing up in The Nightmare that outsiders just do not understand.
“Devin’s” call begins at about 5:34 in the mp3 file from 2007-11-18 9 PM Central on http://dmlive.com/listenindex.html. It’s the second call in the 9 PM hour from 11-18-2007. Dawson Mcallister told Devin… “This is horrifying….”
Me, I remember the beatings and the fighting and yelling and insane rules and all the Bill Gothard bull**** and then trancing out…sh**……I’m still tranced out. I remember how it was like every day was Mission Impossible trying to keep the rules or not get caught and just….survive every single f***ing day. My mother’s a f***ing psycho too, her and her whole church and christian family.
Of course people will say the usual fake answers “just stop being this way and be happy from now on…” “we don’t have the time and the energy to give a s*** about you…” “you’re not the only one who has it bad” “I had it a lot worse than you and I’m happy and doing great” “you’re not popular you know…no one likes you very much”
I’ll take Dawson’s advice to Devin:
“it’s almost like you’ve come back from a war and are having flashbacks” “ONE MORE, just ONE MORE bit of psychological abuse from your mother and you WALK, you are OUT THAT DOOR saying ‘I won’t live like this anymore EVER’.”
I’m not getting any younger and it’s time for the abuse to stop. Just because I’m not one of the “Beautiful People,” just because other people don’t understand or because I’m not “popular” does not mean I need to take any more s*** from anyone. Just one more bit of abuse….and I’m gone….
Listen to what Devin describes in his call…maybe it might help people who don’t understand to…….feel what I feel
Cherish your life
__________________________________________________
I went to God just to see and I was looking at me
Saw Heaven and Hell were lies…when I’m God everyone dies…..
Fourth Entry:
Thread: End Times/Left Behind Insanity (Truth or Error) (Posted on: 26 Nov : 16:56)
I remember as a child laying awake at night, terrified that I was going to “get left behind” for some childish bad thing I’d done or thought or some mistake I’d done. That was around age 8-12 and I would continue to have similar fear through my teenage years. I remember being terrified around year 2000 and always worried about this…”antichrist” who was going to somehow do all these terrible things to people who weren’t “born again” AND had not lost their salvation/committed some sin. I’d lay awake at night and be terrified during the day asking over and over “what if I commit a sin, and don’t have time to confess and ask God forgiveness and repent and get…left behind?!” “what if I’m in some sin that I don’t even recognize and I get……left behind?” “what if I’m watching something on TV that’s somehow a “sin” and Jesus returns and I get……left behind?” “what if I commit the unpardonable sin and get….left behind?”
Some days I’d even lay awake worrying that I had dropped a few cents while placing my 10% tithes into the offering plate or that I had miscalculated my tithes and….something bad would happen……..
Then there was all the Eph 6:1-3 teachings which caused me to worry since no one could answer the question “what if a child rebels against a parent or pastor who is being abusive?”(no, not just a little strict or “setting some standards”………) and “why don’t all these rules of non-violence and other rules apply to church leaders and parents?”
Another issue was the issue of music. Many of the christians and some of the church leaders and my parents said that ANY music “with a beat”(including Christian Contemporary and Christian Rock) was “of Satan and had backmasking” yet OTHER CHRISTIANS said that was nonsense and….BOTH SIDES used the BIBLE to back their side up…so……..how the f*** am I supposed to even know what to do when no one could even figure out what is actually a sin in the “eyes of God” according to that infallible book….the bible.
End times? I so badly wanted to understand what it all meant…so I looked into it as a teenager and found out that there are at least 7 different views of “the end times” and….they all had….the infallible bible to support their contradictory beliefs of the “end times.”
Just like Marilyn Manson, I’d often have nightmares about all this armaggedon mark of the beast antichrist “left behind” bulls***.
They considered me their “chosen prophet.”(who was to become some international leader for their stupid dominionist charismatic Peter Wagner Bill Gothard pentecostal cult.)
All that insanity along with some other pentecostal/Bill Gothard doctrines at one point made me to want to die since……”there’s no point in living anyways since I’m going to be left behind or end up in hell no matter what I do”….there might have also been some….uh…self-mutilation in all that too.
“I bash myself to sleep, what you (and your pentecostal friends) sow I will reap…..
I scar myself you see…I wish I wasn’t me
I hate therefore I am….god @#%$ your righteous hand
I throw a little fit, I slit my teenage wrist
record me with your fist
the most I can learn….is the records that you burn
you want me to save the world…I’m just a little boy
….get your gun”
__________________________________________________________________
I went to God just to see and I was looking at me
Fifth Entry:
Re: Drowning in Despair….. (Healing) (Posted on: 12 Nov : 18:32)
Yes I know what you’re saying….
yeah…you could say that the “paranormal” is frightened of me…he he
Yes I have had a near death experiences and YES, I know about the “past life review” part…it was the most terrifying thing I ever experienced….yeah I’ve been through some insane !@#$% throughout life….and yes I know about the state of consciousness being able to “see clearly”
In the NDE state(whatever it was) I saw all the negatives things I had done and all the times where I could have done right but didn’t…and I felt the terror of not being able to return….but it was NOT “Hellfire” or anything like that…it was more…..the re-incarnation cycle, or at least the very beginning stage.
We’ll have to talk more about our experiences
Sixth Entry:
Thread: Drowning in Despair….. (Healing) (Posted on: 11 Nov : 21:51)
you raped the soul from the child in me………
Crying all alone
The tears flowing down my face in a beautiful stream
The lovely misery and lonely darkness surrounding me
As I see everyone going on with their meaningless vain fake lives
All the posers and wannabes
All the abusers
Crying all alone
Cutting myself
High off the pain and darkness
Seeing so many fakers hating me
So many of my friends who have abandoned me
So many spiritual pretenders who failed to help me.
I’m your nightmares come true
You think you can punish me but you fail to see
That I’ve lived through a thousand nightmares
And all your worst Christian fears are coming true
Walking down these hallways
Of mirrors and sadness seeing myself
Crying all alone as everyone takes their turn
Raping all that I am
Cutting myself killing this pain
Someone help me please
I can’t get out and I am slowly dying
Come and sing with me
This beautiful song of sadness and misery
Cutting ourselves
Crying awash in crimson
Come and sing this song…
As we die and leave this miserable life behind
Can you not see the elegant beauty?
Rays of light like gold silk flowing throughout this place
Beautiful tears of crimson streaming down our bodies
Our work is done here, we’re going home
Let us fly away into the dying sunset
Can you not hear this beautiful song?
As all the pain fades away
Taking your last breath
As the blood and pain drains
Leaving everyone left
To die in their misery and hypocrisy
As the blood and pain drain away
We’re going home to a beautiful place far away from here
________________________________________________
It’s all in your head……it’s all in my head…..
I tried…you lied to me for so long…..
Everywhere I go there’s a sense of it…….
freak on my antics and give me a choice
Doesn’t matter if I give a @#%$….. it’s @#%$ that you gave me
Seventh Entry:
Re: We are the Nobodies (General) (Posted on: 03 Nov : 17:03)
A Gun to the Temple of a World Enslaved by Christianity
You raped the soul from the child in me…….
Bow down to the land of the free
Bow down to your world that made me me
Bury the nails into the one like me
Consecrating the lies and exalting false prophecy
Tearing apart souls of man and all his goals
Offer benedictions and wills to plague your…
Souls….is made, in a so-called God
The taste of sulfur and rain
Your churchianity christ now turns on man
And brings him pain
Bow down to a lying clergy of sodomy
Bow down to the world that rejected me….
A gun to the temple of a world enslaved
by the lies that bind us to a faded hope
And a promise of salvation that is only a lie
Ensures the perversion that you try to hide
will become as dust that will fade in time
To take this world of hate
Of torture, our fate
Will rest in hands
That sow the seeds of rape
Eighth Entry:
Thread: We are the Nobodies (General) (Posted on: 31 Oct : 17:17)
So many people don’t have any clue about The Nightmare we’ve grown up in. I mean, it’s not my fault I was raised in homeschool for 12 f***ing years and that I’m not able to “socialize normally.” How am I supposed to socialize and make new friends when I’m always left out of everything, and always made to be the outcast? I’m nice, I’m considerate, a lot of people tell me I’m intelligent and kind….so why the f*** must everyone think they have some right to abuse and reject me?
I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. Never inviting me to all your fun parties, never inviting me to hang out. And no, don’t say, ‘Well, that’s your fault’ because it isn’t. You people had my phone number, and I asked and all, but no no no no no don’t let the weird kid come along, oooh f***ing nooo
Right now I’m trying to get laid and to finish up some sh**. Why the F**k can’t I get any? I mean, I’m nice and considerate and all that s***, but nooooo…. it’s not my fault I was sheltered my whole life and wasn’t given a f***inkg clue about sex and dating.
No one really gives a f*** about me….everyone thinks they have it soooooo bad…. going to their little church, going to work, hanging out with their long list of friends that care, taking the life they have for granted……
I hate this f***ing world…You may be saying, ‘Well, what makes you so different?’ Because I have something only me and DyC, have, SELF AWARENESS…We know what we are to this world and what everyone else is…We know what you think and how you act…This isn’t a world any more, it’s H.O.E.(Hell on Earth)
We are the Nobodies…..
Today I am dirty
I want to be pretty
Tomorrow, I know I’m just dirt
Yesterday I was dirty
Wanted to be pretty
I know now that I’m forever dirt
Some children died the other day
We fed machines and then we prayed
Puked up and down in morbid faith
You should have seen the ratings that day
We are the Nobodies
We want to be somebodies
When we’re dead,
They’ll know just who we are
__________________________________________________
I throw a little fit, I slit my teenage wrists
The most I can learn is the records that you burn
Ninth Entry:
Thread: Christian Nightmare (Healing) (Posted on: 30 Sep : 15:26)
tears and crying…the guilt and the shame….
crying as memories of christianity flood in………..
Mother please forgive me
All these bad things that I say and do
I just have to get out all my pain and suffering
Now that I am done, remember I will always “love”(and hate) you
I’m your son…………
“Little child, looking so pretty
Come out and play, I’ll be your daddy
Come child, I’ll bless you with God’s anointing
Come child, the holy spirit’s waiting….
Innocent child, looking so sweet
A rape in my eyes and on your flesh I’ll eat”
“It’s alright I didn’t touch you there
Mama said she didn’t care
God says it’s OK
Jesus says to obey
You’re lying, I didn’t touch you there
That’s why mama stopped and stared”…….
You raped!
I feel dirty
It hurt!
As a child
Tied down!
“That’s a good boy”
And f***ed!
Your own child
I scream!
No one hears me…
It hurt!
I’m not a liar
You’ve lied!
Now I wanna die…
You abused!
I won’t be silent
You’re a bastard
I’m not guilty…
Good God!
Trancing out and crying
My God!
Saw you watching….
Mommy why?!
Your own child…..
________________________
All alone in this dark place
With tears streaming down my face…..
So what can it be? No one hears my call….
Echoes back at me, no one’s there…..
You can break my back but you won’t break me
stretched as far as I can be
you stole my purity, the evidence is plain
Time’s gonna wash away all pain….
Tenth Entry:
Re: Meeting with the Church (Healing) (Posted on: 30 Aug : 18:13)
That’s great UnlockDestiny, I know how you feel. I’m going to be leaving soon also. I recently got laid off so moving into my own place is going to have to be put off but there are other options. I can’t wait to leave this nightmare behind.
Just say with me “We will no longer be oppressed by the fascism of Christianity! And we will no longer be oppressed by the police state mentality!”
______________________________________________
Mister Crowley…….conceived in the eye of a secret
UPDATE III:
The site first identified to have Matthew’s final postings…inclusive of the entry linked to the language of Columbine…has elected to repost all of the comments which they had previously removed. They can be found at the following link:
nghtmrchld26’s posts on 12/09/07
UPDATE IV:
Editor’s Note: The MySpace page linked below appears to have been taken down. At the moment, I do not know why the page has been disabled. Fortunately, I have screen shots of all of the content.
It appears that Matthew also had a MySpace page…although it was identified to be the page of “Sarah’s Chrstnnghtmr”. Looking at the page and reading through the writings, it coincides with many of the postings Matthew posted on other sites and the song playing on the page is “Mr. Crowley”…which ties back to many of his other postings as does the list of favorite music which includes Marilyn Manson, Slipknot, Slayer, Setherial, Deicide, Emperor, Naglfar, Marduk, Cradle of Filth, Cannibal Corpse, King Diamond, Mercyful Fate, Danzig, Mystic Circle, Shape of Despair, Dark Funeral.
She/He also lists favorite books which tie back to some of his entries at the other sites. Included in her/his list of books are 777, LIBER 220, LIBER XV, Liber ABA, LIBER 418, Liber 414, The Secret Doctrine, Isis Unveiled, Voice of the Silence, Long Hard Road Out of Hell - Marilyn Manson.
I found one particularly interesting entry on the MySpace page. It is an entry titled “Welcome To Our Christian Nightmare”, and it appears to have been posted on June 5, 2006. What makes it so interesting is that it is the same story Matthew refers to in a posting at Ex-Pentecostal Forums. In that September 30, 2007 posting, he identifies the story as “A friends experience of growing up in The Nightmare” and explains it as follows:
“One of my friends wrote this. She was raised in a non-denominational/pentecostal+Charismatic household and church and is currently a young adult living on her own.”
What is unclear is whether this is Matthew’s story or actually a story about someone he may have known or someone…like Sarah…who he created to tell his story as a female…or to simply tell a fictional story (Matthew wanting to post his creative work). I took note of the fact that she/he refers to “Our” Christian Nightmare in the title of the entry. I suspect this wasn’t an accident.
I also noticed that in Sarah’s bio section, it states “Not Sure” in the section designated for sexual orientation. Sarah also notes she is a member of a group identified as “All Real Lesbians And Bisexuals & Beatiful (sp) Girls”…but the link doesn’t seem to be working.
One of my first takes on this MySpace page ties back to another remark Matthew makes in an entry on one of the other sites. In that entry he muses, “What does it take to get laid?” (may not be an exact quotation). Perhaps Matthew thought he might be able to meet girls by posing as a “questioning” female? At the very least it seems like an avenue for an introverted 20 something male to try and expand his circle of acquaintances.
Part of me also suspects his plan included an anticipation that people would attempt to connect the dots he carefully laid out as part of what I would characterize as an elaborate alter-identity, alter-world which people would discover after his death. I’ll need to ponder this further before making any definitive statement.
UPDATE V:
It seems that Matthew also posted comments at alt.suicide.holiday under the name “DyingChild_65″. Many of the entries are the same ones he posted on other sites so I’ve only included two which I found to be significant. What struck me about the Dec 9 entry below is his reference to the documentary Jesus Camp.
For those who haven’t seen it, the documentary focuses upon children who are sent to camp to become better soldiers of God. Ted Haggard is prominently featured in the piece which may assist in explaining how Matthew decided to target New Life Church. The fact that Matthew refers to Haggard as a favorite minister of his mother seems to support this argument.
I can’t confirm if Matthew attended any such programs at New Life Church or any other location…though it wouldn’t surprise me if he received this type of training at some point. Haggard’s subsequent fall may have added to Matthew’s growing disenchantment…a fact evidenced by the Nov 27 posting in which he lists a number of religious figures and then proceeds to assail them and their actions.
The Marilyn Manson video in the Nov 27 entry seems to support his growing sense of alienation…as well as his simmering anger at those who “fit in”.
Nov 27, 2:30 am DyingChild_65 wrote:
Joyce Meyer, Peter Wagner, Ted Haggard, Jimmy Bakker, Jerry Falwell,
godhatesfags.org, Richard/Oral Roberts, James Dobson, John Bevere,
Tommy Tenny, Cindy Jacobs, Earl Paulk, Ken Ham, Heidi Baker/Iris
Ministries, John MacArthur, David Wilkerson, Paula White, Dave
Hunt/Berean Call, Kenneth Hagin, David Yonggi Cho, Charles Stanley, D
James Kennedy, Jan and Paul Crouch, Dutch Sheets, Benny Hinn, Paul
Cain, Tim Lahaye and all the Left Behind end times “Jesus is returning
soon!” bullshit, Chuck Pierce, Stan Johnson/Prophecy Club, Gary Ezzo,
Bill Gothard….and all the other televangelists and pastors, and
christian followers……
We see all these christians trying to force their beliefs,
pseudo-morality and bulls*** on everyone(usually for money and power),
telling everyone they need to “repent, send us money, and obey our
interpretations of the bible” so they can be let into heaven, have
their imaginary sins “forgiven” and not be sent to hell by their
“loving” pseudo-God.
Marilyn Manson - The Beautiful People
Tell me, just like Marilyn Manson asks…..do you really want to go to
a place that’s filled with a bunch of…. assholes?
Sorry but there’s no such thing as heaven and hell nor “original sin.”
Christians can’t even figure out their own doctrines….they’re still
arguing over whether or not you can lose your “salvation” or not.
Christians can’t even agree on whether or not Christian Contemporary
Music is a sin or whether or not to “speak in tongues”
plus……there’s a gazillion different versions of how Jesus is going
to return and whether there’s even a rapture or not………
The worst slave of all is the prick who indulges openly in no
pleasures at all in order that he may be considered “virtuous” or
“respectable” and these Christians who “have religion” / “a relationship
with God” and want to see every one else in the same deplorable state
of senile decay so that they may not feel quite so much out of place
in the world…….
These are fools that men adore; both their Gods & their men are fools.
Come forth, o children, under the stars, & take your fill of love!
I am the Snake that giveth Knowledge and Delight and bright glory, and
stir the hearts of men with drunkenness. To worship me take wine and
strange drugs whereof I will tell my prophet, & be drunk thereof! They
shall not harm ye at all. It is a lie, this folly against self. The
exposure of innocence is a lie. Be strong, o man! lust, enjoy all
things of sense and rapture: fear not that any God shall deny thee for
this.
Despise also all cowards; professional soldiers who dare not fight,
but play; all fools despise!
But the keen and the proud, the royal and the lofty; ye are brothers!
The key of joy is disobedience
“We will no longer be oppressed by the fascism of christianity”
Dec 9, 9:34 am DyingChild_65 wrote:
thank you to all you christians who’ve made me this way….you’ve
added to the rage……..I’m just so full of hate now and I love
it…………forcing all your religious bullshit down my throat all
these fuckin years with your dominionist christian agenda….like in
Jesus Camp…..well…the abuse ends NOW………give me one good
reason why I should show ANY mercy and compassion for ANY of you
idiots……..you christians never showed me any mercy nor
compassion………
me, I still believe in a loving God….but not the christian god who
is full of hate….and never did anything at all all these years while
I’ve cried out for answers for spiritual truth…….your christian
God never did one thing about any of the abuse me and my christian
friends went through……….why the f*** should I care about any
morals?
Mankind in his insatiable search for divine
Knowledge has discarded all biblical teachings
Realizing that the strength of religion is the repression of
knowledge
All structures of religion have collapsed
Life prays for death
in the wake of the horror of these revelations
It was never imagined how graphic the reality that would
be known as the end of creation would manifest itself
We believe all this chaos and atrocity can be traced
Back to one single event…..
We hold these truths to be painfully self-evident
All men are not created equal
Only the strong will prosper
Only the strong will conquer
Only in the darkness of Christ have I realized
God Hates Us All!!!!!!
Drones since the dawn of time
Compelled to live your christian sheltered lives
Not once has anyone ever seen
Such a rise of pure hypocracy
I’ll instigate I’ll free your mind
I’ll show you what I’ve known all this time
God Hates Us All!!!!! God Hates Us All!!!!
You know it’s true God hates this place
You know it’s true he hates this race
Homicide…….Suicide
Hate heals, you should try it sometime
Strive for Peace with acts of war
The beauty of death we all adore
I have no faith distracting me
I know why your prayers will never be answered
God Hates Us All; God Hates Us All
He Fuckin’ hates me
Pessimist, Terrorist targeting the next mark
Global chaos feeding on hysteria
Cut throat, slit your wrist, shoot you in the back fair game
Drug abuse, self abuse searching for the next high
Sounds a lot like hell is spreading all the time
I’m waiting for the day the whole world @#%$ dies
I never said I wanted to be God’s disciple
I’ll never be the one to blindly follow!!!!!
Man made virus infecting the world….
Self-destruct human time bomb
What if there is no God would you think the fuckin’ same
Wasting your life in a leap of blind faith
Wake the @#%$ up can’t ignore what I say
I got my own philosophy
I hate everyone equally
You can’t tear that out of me
No segregation -separation
Just me in my world of enemies
I never said I wanted to be God’s disciple
I’ll never be the one to blindly follow
I’ll never be the one to bear the cross-disciple
I reject this f***in’ race!!!!!
I despise this f***in’ place!!!!!!
_____________________________
Mister Crowley…….





Well, I’d say he’s messed up in the head, but he’s not entirely original… Some of his “writings” are established song lyrics mixed in with what might be some of his own words, but who knows I just recognized some of them. He’s apparently claimed as his own just about the entire song “Purity” by Slipknot, which was written years ago. Check out the lyrics. I also recognized some Marilyn Manson in there; some others too. Just thought I would point out that maybe he’s not as dark as he was trying to portray…
Slipknot,
I assumed readers were aware of his references to song lyrics from the news reports. I shouldn’t have assumed as much and I should have pointed out that many of these entries contain song lyrics.
I didn’t include them to indicate they were original quotations; rather they are the words which apparently spoke to him or meant something to him. I guess I got wrapped up in reading his thoughts and the task of trying to compile the many entries.
BTW, if you hadn’t already noticed, his use of “Mister Crowley” is also a reference to an Ozzy Osbourne song he sang just after Osbourne split with Black Sabbath (I believe he sang it in the early 80’s).
Thanks for pointing this out and sharing your observations.
Regards,
Daniel
What a tragic loss.
With this world view and ability to articulate it, he could have been a Keynote Speaker at the Next Democratic National Convention.
He will surely be missed…
So much pain, how sad that he saw that side of christianty, So sorry he had to go through life with those glasses on.
Jozzie
Earlier today, I read some of Murray’s posts on the original sites, but I didn’t catch most of these. The theme of anger though, is consistent through all of them. There is some sad irony in that Murray made his mother’s “prophecy” come true. He rebelled and then he returned to the church.
what a loser…he should have been shot a long time ago..he is no better then the people he felt oppressed him..funny thing is..he is burning in hell crying his ass off..lol…he wont be missed and he wont get any recognition ever again unless this shit happens again..and then he will just be another psycho with a gun and pussy feelings..burn baby burn!!
Check out this site; http://independentspirits.net/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?1174
“Chrstnghtmr”
Looks like the same guy, with a different handle, there are many messages from this person……
He was a piece excrement that unfortunately killed before he killed himself. Burn in hell…
NOTE to readers:
I’ve added a number of additional entries Matthew posted under the name mentioned by Anthony above…”Chrstnghtmr” at Thought Theater. I will add them here at All Spin Zone later this evening. I would add them now but I’m late for dinner with friends.
Daniel
that video is AWESOME. I linked to it at BC.
Cradle of Filth is one of the most evil bands around. I love that kind of metal.
To all those who feel they have the power to judge (talking to you Burner). You are no better then those who have committed these violent acts. We all need to forgive everyone and none of us know what will happen to his spirit. That is not up to us! It is up to God. He will be missed, especially by his family who knew the good kid at one time. It is a devastating time for many families and we should all have peace in our hearts and pray for those families who lost thier dear loved ones.
in the downward spiral post on 10/01/07 (third paragraph from the end of this post) he refers to something that i thought appeared to be an admittance to being molested. please tell me your thoughts.
You probably are well aware of this already, but . . .
You’ve of course noticed his “Mister Crowley” (An Ozzy Osbourne song from “Blizzard of Ozz”). No big deal, except he then writes, “Every man and woman is a star.” This is a direct quote of Liber AL vel Legis chapter 1 line 3. Liber AL is the authoritative text of Thelema (a religion whose beliefs are summarized by 1. “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law” [AL I:40] and 2. “Love is the law, love under will” [AL I:57]). Liber AL was Crowley’s “received” vision or prophecy of the age. There may thus be some intentional irony here in Murray’s quotation of Crowley’s prophecy in light of his charismatic status as “chosen one.”
I know this family, personally and can honestly tell you that as a not-sooo-christian, democrat who watches the simpsons, they never judged me and were nothibg but wonderful people. They treated me like family. I know that a true family environment is different and difficult to assess, but in my opinion he suffered from a mental problem…not bad parents. May God bless them all and peace be with them.
There were MANY references to rape. If “rape of a child’s soul” doesn’t refer to sexual violation, he at least puts what happened to him in the same category. “Not just once or twice.”
I wonder if Murray had seen some of Jesus’ splangnizomai compassion in this eartlhy life if it would have made any difference. Jesus had strong words for those whose religious systems prevented “little ones” from coming to him.
If we’re feeling in a “someone must pay” mood, we can certainly condemn Murray for his violence. It cannot be denied, though, that he is a product of his religious upbringing. Satan enslaved him, maybe? Sounds more like the church’s hypocrisy did.
A millstone for us all.
My heart breaks for all those who have lost loved ones.
Jason,
Thanks for the elaboration. I find it interesting that Crowley used “Qabalah” to interpret AL given the fact that Matthew…in one of his postings (I don’t think it is included in this long list)…spoke fondly of the Madonna song “Frozen”, a song on the album that basically exposed Madonna’s interest in “kabbalah” and the mysticism associated with it.
I’m of the opinion that such allusions and nuanced intricacies are innately attached to many religions…in fact many religions go out of their way to establish long links and connections in order to validate doctrine. Basically, if one weaves a lineage of historical accounts into ideology, it is thought to help support its legitimacy.
I see such efforts largely encompassed in man’s desire to explain out existence…give it meaning in order to avert the terror of our mortality…a concept contained and defined in “Terror Management Theory”…a subject I’ve written about in the past.
Playing dr,
I’m still digesting all of this material but my initial reaction tells me he wasn’t a victim of molestation…at least not within his immediate family…IMO. I sense he’s attempting to draw a comparison in order to emphasize that his abuse was actually far worse and more enduring than being molested.
In one of his other writings, he recounts a story written by a female friend (I don’t believe that entry is in the above thread). In that story, she talks at length about abuse in the sense of someone standing over her and repeatedly punching her in the face. Having only skimmed the writing, I can’t tell you I know if the story was metaphoric or real. Notwithstanding, my sense was that Matthew felt it described the type of abuse he believed he had endured for years…a never ending pressure to toe the line.
My thanks to all for sharing their thoughts. It is disheartening to see some of the abrasive comments though I certainly understand how such horrific events can elicit a visceral response.
My intention with this and subsequent postings on the subject is to raise awareness of the mechanisms which lead to such tragedies…and to hopefully encourage people to look and listen before we’re left to place coffins in the ground.
Regards,
Daniel
There is no excuse for the murderous hate that Matthew directed toward innocent people. The pain that is now with the families and friends of those he killed or injured is indelible.
At the same time……will we listen to some of the reasons for his hate and pain? It sounds like he, and others, were abused, molested, and humiliated at the hands of Christian leaders. I would venture to say that as time goes on, we will discover that this intense explosive murderous rage, at least in some way, was his response to his childhood torture. Right now, only God knows if anyone ever saw his wounded heart and soul. It seems obvious that Matthew never truly felt that anyone did.
To those that harmed him as a child, the scriptural admonition against harming little ones seems weak: It would be better for them if a millstone were hung around their necks and they were thrown into the sea, than that they would cause one of these little ones to stumble.
I am not in any way supporting what Matthew did. As a mom, I am devastated with these families. As one who has walked through the pain from childhood violence and abuse at the hands of Christian leaders, I am devastated to read the torment of Matthew’s pain and isolation inside his own mind. There was another way out of his hell. The wake of grief he left because he didn’t find a different way out is incomprehensible.
We need to wake up and listen when a little one tells us that they’ve been harmed. Before it’s too late.
It seems he was hideously and methodically abused into the ground by his parents, mostly his mother. If this is true, they should be put in prison for the rest of their lives and their assets disseminated to the victim’s families.
God bless you Matthew. I won’t pretend to accept or understand your final choice. My questions surrounding what you did are rational, but I realize that you lost rationality. May God bring his mercy and forgiveness to you. I hope you and your innocent vicitms are at rest.
Kids who are socialized when young tend to grow up into adults willing to avoid the inconvenient truth at all costs in order to maintain the social web. Kids like Matthew who have never been socialized, and thus have nothing to distract their attention from the inconsistancies of life, have nothing to do but stare at the inconsistancies and wonder why. The fact is, there are many things taught in churches that either cannot be supported by anything written in the Bible at worst, or are subject to varying interpretations at best (and hence, the multitude of denominations that have evolved). Matthew seems to have picked up on this at a young age, when psychological defenses are not mature. It sounds like none of the adults in his life would take his legitimate questions about discrepancies between Bible statements and church doctrinal statements seriously. He may not have been physically raped (although I think it is probable that he was), but he was certainly spiritually raped. Those who need to maintain the social connection cannot afford to question the belief systems that hold their social network together. (Good grief! You mean the Bible doesn’t actually say this. You mean that I need to start making new social connections all over again in a new denomination that preaches a more correct truth??? No way. I just won’t examine the issue you want to raise with me.) Terror management indeed (as in, avoiding terror by refusing to think for myself).
Quote: There was another way out of his hell. Unquote
Quote: I see such efforts largely encompassed in man’s desire to explain out existence…give it meaning in order to avert the terror of our mortality … Unquote
Based on what he wrote above, Matthew’s terror seemed to come from not being able to find doctrinal agreement on the answer to this simple question “What must I do to be saved?”. Matthew’s hell seemed to be that he actually believed in God and eternal life and eternal torment - but could not find anyone who would give him a definite answer to the question “what must I do to be saved”. See Matthew’s attention paid above to situations where he was damned by adults in his life for doing or wanting to do things that these same adults allowed the beautiful kids (or the condemning adults themselves) to do. How is there ever an escape from such a hell as that??
This post and my previous one is my plea for all adults reading this to take seriously the questions of young people about the discrepancies between what the Bible actually says and what church doctrine says. With the internet, it is easier today than ever before to compare, in a short period of time, the doctrinal distinctives of many denominations and see where many of them go way beyond what the Bible actually says. For a young person of today, who wants a definitive answer to the question “what must I do to be saved?”, being presented with five different answers as the “truth”, many of which contradict each other, is a hell from which there is no easy escape. “Which answer is correct?? How can I be sure?? Who will talk this stuff through with me??” Someone who knows nothing about any denomination’s distinctive’s other than their own will not readily understand what this kind of hell feels like.
Note that the questions “what must I do to be saved?” and “what must I do to be liked by you?” can become indistinguishable from each other in the mind of the young. Matthew truely paints the picture of descent into despair when one cannot find a satisfactory answer to either question.
I do not beileve his actions were about religion at all. To me it’s obvious what happened. He was molested by a member of the church. Is this not obvious?
The verbage he uses his textbook Incest Survivor. He either remembered or supressed the memory and something ignited the powder keg. I gaurantee there was a recent event that triggered the memory of the attack and the attacker, who was undoubtedlly a powerful figure.Someone “above reproach.” (whoever took advantage of him thought they had a helpless victim…but Matthew came back to show he was not helpless.) This is not about religion. If he’d been molested by a postal worker he would have shown up at the post office and we’d be arguing about stamps.
This is sad. The both Matthew Murray AND the author/publisher of this blog have such an uneducated and misunderstood definition of Christianity. You look at incorrect stereotypes instead of Christ and His teaching (as Christians are supposed to do). The flaws of miguided men setting up religion and systems in the name of Christ do not make them OF CHRIST. A simple check of God’s word proves them (as well as this site) lacking.
Of course the blood is on his hands. But the root of the problem stems from his molestation in the church. He was too embarassed to tell anybody about this so he expressed it with his writing. This should be investigated. He implies along with himself others were molested in the church. Withsome simple police investigating this shouldn’t be hard to uncover. The blood isn’t on his hands alone.
I am so deeply grieved by this. I am a Christian, and I am well aware of how tragically short the church falls in meeting the real needs of the world. I grew up in a Pentecostal church as well, and I can attest to the black and white perspective that is advocated there. I am very thankful to have left that behind. I am deeply saddened to see the impact that these things had on this young man.
I want everyone who read his writings to know that the things he experienced are not reflective of every Christian, or of Jesus Himself. I am sure there are many Christians who are saddened as I am by all this young man went through, and by the way his anger and depression engulfed him. There are no easy answers here, nothing we can point to and say “If only this would have been done, this would not have happened.” I can only say that I wish things had turned out differently, for this young man and his victims.
I am glad for my Christian upbringing, but also glad that I have let go of some of the teachings. I now know a God who is generous in His grace, abundant in His love, and rejoices over me with dancing and singing. This is not the God I was told about growing up, but I believe this is His nature. I am so saddened that more people have never been introduced to God in this way.
I don’t pretend to know if this kid was molested or not but I don’t think anyone can jump to conclusions based on his ramblings or his “poetry”. That’s as irresponsible as labeling the Duke lacrosse team rapists.
I do have lots of questions about this kid.
Does anyone know if he wrote any of that “poetry” or is it all song lyrics? From what I saw it was all song lyrics.
His stated reason for being so angry was that he was constantly being controlled and was living in a nightmare. How was this 24 year man being controlled when he had so much free time to learn about Ozzy Osbourne, Marylin Manson, piles of swedish death metal bands and surf the internet?
Where was he enrolled in school?
Where his nightmare parents paying for it or did he also have a nightmare job?
Why was he angry about getting kicked out of the youth missionary thing if it was so terrible?
Did he kill people because other peoples kids could watch movies that he was not allowed to when he was a kid?
BlackSabbathfan asked: “Where was he enrolled in school?”
He was home schooled with online computer courses.
“Why was he angry about getting kicked out of the youth missionary thing if it was so terrible?”
One thing you miss with home schooling is a lot of interaction with other kids. He hadn’t learned to relate.
“Did he kill people because other peoples kids could watch movies that he was not allowed to when he was a kid?”
I doubt it.
I’ll quote my own blog post:
http://normdoering.blogspot.com/2007/12/ugly-and-vile-spin-some-christianists.html
There really is a lot of “atheist anger” out there these days. In fact, it’s bad enough that many former fundamentalists face enough recovery issues that it requires psychological counseling to help them get over their fear and anger and get out of their churches. It’s the kind of anger Richard Dawkins doesn’t understand because he left a far more liberal British church and never had to deal with such issues himself.
I wrote about my own emotional conflicts in breaking with semi-fundy Christianity over a decade ago in my essays, Hope is the Bait and Fear is the Trap. (links to those essays on my blog.)
This is some of the saddest text I have ever read.
Agreed, Duke. And I must say I love your nick.
I knew his mother, well enough to know there were oddities. Sure she was nice and christian-like and all. She would go out of her way to meet a need somewhere. I think she was a real giver…so much so that it didn’t make sense that her husband was a neuro-surgeon and she drove a beat up vehicle and surrounded herself with poverty-stricken people. (Don’t get me wrong I’m all for giving and hangin out with people not in your “status”, but there was just something odd about it - - - )
Anyway, she always talked about her son Christopher but never really heard her mention Matthew. Christopher was the perfect son. He played piano like Tchaikosky (sp?) (at least that’s the impression she gave) and played baseball well enough to get a scholarship. She hated that he had to leave for college. She drove him all around the countryside looking for the right college.
Like I said, she was a very nice person and very spiritual, but nobody ever knows what happens behind closed doors.
Someone help me make sense out of doing such good things in the church in the name of Christ and trying to please God, yet your own family is in shambels…it’s a rampant disease in the church.
To me, one of the greatest tragedies in all of this, is that any religion can be a source of comfort, of peace, and of healing, or it can be a source of strife and pain. IMHO, each religion holds a promise, if we use it to inspire us for good purposes. Like any gift, with “great power comes great responsibility”. Religion can build communities, strengthen families, and bring peace to neighborhoods. It can also do exactly the opposite. We can use it to heal, or use it to hurt. I believe our intention, and our conscience, are key to knowing if we are on the right path.
I ask all of my dear, spiritual friends and family, from many different faiths, to join me in meditation or prayer (whatever is acceptable to you), in this time of reflection. Together, we can use this opportunity to be reminded to use our respective faiths to lessen the suffering of others. Whatever our faiths, where G-d’s name is used (in vain) to cause pain instead of healing, let us make the necessary corrections, and do what we can to enable healing. Let us rededicate our efforts toward LOVE. Together, we CAN make a difference in how religion is used in this world.
Prayer for Compassion ~
Lord, help us to remember that others don’t always see the way we do, hear what we hear, feel what we feel, or understand things the way we’ve come to understand them. You give each of us gifts that are uniquely ours but so often we fail to value the gift in another, judging other gifts as wrong or somehow less important than our own. Give us the compassion you want us to have, and teach us to embrace each other with compassionate arms, no matter what our age, color, creed, history, or belief. Help us to remember that you are Life Itself, and that you are using every one of our unique gifts to bring us together with you once again.
Amen
(prayer from http://www.revisionsplus.com/kmurray.html)
Wise words from the “Veleveteen Rabbi” website, applied to this tragedy, in regard to the two churches affected:
“May they be graced with wisdom, compassion, and the ability to move their communities forward toward justice and toward peace. Amen.”
I don’t condone what Matthew did. But I can relate. I wasn’t raised as a Christian. But I accepted it. I havn’t actually declared a denial of Jesus. but I have denied the church. If anyone will say that is the same thing, I’m not going to argue with you. Think what you want to think. I remain a spritually inquisitive person. But I have abandoned the concept in believing in any one religion as the ultimate right one.
Matthew wrote:
“Why was I told that I couldn’t be a missionary because I wasn’t “social enough”? I was told that I was “an introvert.”
Those of you who are extoverts and socialy skilled will say bullshit, that’s no excuse. But in reality you are not socially skilled. The acid test is how you treat the introverts and the socially challenged.
I believe Matthew. The possibility should be considered that maybe YWAM doesn’t care enough about the introverts and in the socially handicapped to recruit people who are like this who will be better equipped to witness to people who are like this. I don’t like churches, because when you are an introvert and socially handicapped, they think you’re on drugs or cursed or something. I’m in my 40s and I bet this comes across as being from someone younger. I’m still struggling, not by my own disabilities, but from the result of how people treat me.
Mathew was crying out for help on Christian boards. Was there anyone reading those boards who can truly itentify with him. No, because Christianity doesn’t draw a lot of people who are like Matthew. He was raised in it from birth. He discvovered the faith he was raised in could’t accept him for who he was. His foundation crumbled. The cliche, “Don’t look to people, look to God”, didn’t work anymore.” He people to be able to identify with, and they are nowhere to be found in the church.
If this is Matthew’s fault it’s because he continued to post on Christan boards expecting someone like him would respond.
Christianity doesn’t understand introverts and socially handicapped. Well so does everyplace else in world. What else is new.
Was there something wrong with Matthew because he eventually went on a shooting rampage. Or did his circumstances become so unbearable? I don’t know the answer but I am leaning to that his circumstances became too unbearable to handle anymore.
Before you condemn him think about this. If any of you extroverted socially skilled people had to live in a world full of introverted socially handicapped people, I bet you would melt down and do the same thing. Even though introvered and socially skilled people are much less likely to play mind games, you will still go nuts.
The stuff here makes me cry. Thanks much to all who knew Matthew and his family. I owe you a debt, as it is impoprtant top me to try to understand, and I know how difficult it is for you to write what you do.
Daniel wrote: “BTW, if you hadn’t already noticed, his use of “Mister Crowley” is also a reference to an Ozzy Osbourne song he sang just after Osbourne split with Black Sabbath (I believe he sang it in the early 80’s).”
Yet on Independent Spirits, a site “built out of the obvious need for healing and encouragement for those affected by the teachings of Bill Gothard and the Institute in Basic Life Principles”–the group whose homeschooling program his parents used, Matthew writes:
It is pretty clear there was some sexual and mental abuse going on. As I grew up the cults of the new Evangelical Protestantism ruined the lives of many of my peers. One of the most dedicated I found out recently had beaten his infant child to death because it wouldn’t stop crying, and that was how he was raised. Spare the rod and spoil the child.
Like Marilyn Manson, and many others less famous, there are a lot of wounded people who were abused and neglected in the name of the death cult that is Evangelical Protestantism. The gross hypocrisy, fraud, theft, abuse, and sexual perversion (by their own definition) cannot help but cause cognitive dissonance in the ranks. These crooks need to be investigated and the evil rooted out. Look at the Papa Pilgrim story, or Koresh, or Haggard, Falwell, Oral Roberts, Bakker, and on and on. A panoply of tiny monsters.
I knew Matt Murray. He was an odd little fellow with interesting mannerisms, but nothing to suggest the carnage he was planning for Sunday. When I heard that Sunday’s shooter was carrying two handguns, an assault rifle, and 1000 rounds of ammunition, I thought there MUST be another Matthew J. Murray from Englewood Colorado. The image of the shooter that comes to mind based on the news reports does not fit the Matt Murray I knew.
Matthew J. Murray of Englewood Colorado was small wisp of a boy. Though he was 24 years old, his fragile body, which looked like skin wrapped around bones, could barely support the weight of his clothes, much less a vest full of ammunition and weapons.
He wasn’t a very talkative person, and I usually did what I could to engage him in conversation when I was with him. Though he didn’t say much, he would listen and reply with a rapid affirmation that sounded like, “Yss-yss-yss”. He had a hard time looking at people while they were talking to him and his eyes would dart quickly from place to place, which I just attributed to shyness.
I also know that he sought membership in many different “esoteric” organizations against his parents approval, many of which I was also a member. He never once mentioned to me a hatred of Christianity, or a hatred of any kind. I know that he had strictly religious parents, but many of us did. I can only assume that as he went from organization to organization, he was looking for some sort of validation for the deep seated hatred that was swelling within him. However, he must have been disappointed to be met with philosophies of love, tolerance, and peace. Contrary to public opinion, most esoteric and/or occult organizations do not teach hate.
I guess what has been bothering me the most about this whole thing, aside from the murders, is at what point in the past few months since I last saw him did he snap? Was he treated THAT poorly as a child? Was he neglected all his life? Was he just cracked? Or was it was all of the above?
In several interviews with his neighbors, they mentioned not ever seeing much of him. They said that Matthew’s father and brother would be outside throwing the football around and all they saw of Matthew was when he pulled up in his car and walked into the house.
While I considered Matthew a friend, I admit that I didn’t really know him. When I first met him several years ago, he was alone in a crowd. I don’t think that people went out of their way to avoid him, I think that he was just invisible to most people.
I’m not writing this to take anything away from the murders he committed, but rather to shed some light on a twisted boy who finally exploded from despair. When I was young, kids who were deeply depressed took their own lives quietly. Now these same kids often feel that they have to take as many people with them as possible. The people who wronged them.
A warning to everybody, these sad souls are everywhere and things are only going to get worse, at least for a while. I can’t imagine the increased loneliness and sorrow that clutched and twisted Matthew J. Murray of Englewood Colorado into a demented vigilante of his own loathing.
JB
Jack Denver wrote:
“Was he treated THAT poorly as a child? Was he neglected all his life? Was he just cracked? Or was it was all of the above?”
It may be none of those things. It may have just been bad brain chemistry. No human being or human group’s behavior may be to blame. Thousands of kids are treated far worse and never go on suicidal shooting sprees.
Maybe the question you should ask is if there has ever been any psychosis or schizophrenia in his family.
Thank you so much for compiling Matthew’s writings. It helps flesh out the person that was Matthew Murray. Whilst I don’t condone his shooting spree in any form, these postings do help provide some sort of understanding and compassion for him. He was a person in incredible pain and my heart aches for him as well as his victims. It also helps to make sure that the person that was Matthew is portrayed as more than just the ’shooter’. My heart goes out to him. What a tragic waste of a life. If truly schizophrenic, he was curable.
Matthew’s postings are very articulate and he had a lot of insight into the impact legalistic/fundamentalist religion had on him. His posts are well-written and they really don’t seem to deteriorate until late November which makes one wonder what trigger event occured.
Whether or not YWAM and New Life are cults in reality, his coming out of them was very much the reaction of someone coming out of a cult. I’ve had a similar relationship to conservative Christianity and it was painful ‘coming’ out of it. I’m a mature adult woman in my 40’s and it took me from age 40-45 to let go of things that were such an essential part of my identity. It’s taken me ages to redefine who I am. I could see where this process would be unsettling, particularly to a person who is biologically predisposed to schizophrenia.
(Ironically, I spent three months at a DTS in Denver over a decade ago which explains my vested interest in the story. I know Peter Warren. Whilst not a cult, the Denver base, when I was there, was pretty authoritarian and legalistic. Paradoxically, the people have the best of intentions and don’t seek to hurt or harm, but have a very narrow construction of Christianity which is painful to those of us who do ask questions and don’t take things at face value just because some Christian leader says its true. Although I don’t agree with Peter’s leadership style and a lot of his doctrine, I care about him and feel for him too in this situation. He knew Matthew’s family very well and is close to the uncle that keeps being cited in the news. He must be in a lot of pain as well.)
It really sounds like Matthew was sexually abused at some point in his life and from his writings he does seem to implicate his father or some sort of spiritual leaders important to him. It also seems his mother knew which would account for the love/hate relationship he had with his mother.. To someone with a biological predisposition to schizophrenia, being sexually abused at a young age would be a trauma sufficient to trigger psychosis in a person’s late teens/early 20’s when such psychosis tends to manifest. It sounds like Matthew had some schizophrenic episodes five years ago when at YWAM as one of his bunkmates reported he was hearing voices. I hope the police will talk to his parents and try to ascertain whether or not he was sexually abused or not and that the possibility doesn’t get swept under the carpet.
I don’t want to blame anyone per se, but I do hope family, friends, church, YWAM leaders, his therapists/psychologists will read these writings and try to gain understanding from this so the next time a ‘Matthew Murray’ pops up in their midst they are better equipped to reach out to them with the kind of medical help they needed. It’s hard to help someone that is schizophrenic and so often it goes undetected/misdiagnosed even by psychologists/psychiatrists. And at the end of the day, the person can refuse help and there isn’t much one can do about that. But, Matthew was salvagable and this outcome was not inevitable. That is one of the greatest tragedies of this whole event.
Any abuse is too much and the despair found in the songs quoted by Matthew, suggest he is quoting “voices” of the many despairing people (rock bands-whoever) in his head.
I have lived with people who are schizophrenic and refuse to take their “medication” for fear of losing their mind further. Hearing voices is a common factor but this is not forcing them to kill, it is no doubt a battle similar to the Beautiful Mind movie - Matthew had a choice too.
After observing this person constantly in a community context over a few years being surrounded by others who had some of their own disorders he kept opening up reaching out and trying to be apart those around him.
Some of the people were afraid of him and others just accepted him not trying to change him but also trying to be a friend. He still is shaky and struggles with voices but he knows we care for him. He still will not submit to any treatment and to force it on him is another abuse he is better without.
He too is a poet and loves to quote songs. He has a terrible sexual abuse history (not from parents but from local neighbors) in his childhood but even though he finds he is angry at simple things he chooses to care for those around him. He is very religious and has grown up within a strict religious setting.
And…any one who identifies with A. Crowley (where kindness is replace by bitter hatred and teachings of ritual human sacrifice) as an inspiration has surely been mentally abused by these teachings.
I am not highly informed on antidepressants, but the prescription of Prozac (which for a small but significant percentage of patients CAUSES even worse “suicidality” symptoms) seems to me to be a totally inappropriate and negligent therapy for schizophrenia. Was his withrawal from Prozac monitored in the least by ANY health professional? Our healthcare system is nonexistent for a case like Matthew Murray - suicidal death by police was his only option (in our corporatized, heartless, hardly Jesus-based society) to end his maddening voices.
I will not claim I know if he was molested or not. Like others said, it may be the choice of wordings. However this much I can say, coming from a someone who was taught to be agnostic as a child. There is so many “issues” that come out of the church that conflict with each other. I know that is what steered me out of the church, even though I so much wanted to be a part of it. I went to various different churches, all demominations, because I valued the social structure, the family nature of the church culture. But that which I learned varied from one to the next, the very values that they preached varied from one to the next and within people. I could never wrap my head around that and I always questioned.
Now I would never be able to understand being pressured to believe something that your mind fights. That is a torture. Then to remove all the goodness of the church that I did crave: lacking the positive nature of the family/social structure of the culture and being alone? Who then do you have to reconcile your questions with? If you have no one to go toward, do you then completely venture toward all that is opposite?
It would seem that is what Mr. Murray has clinged to. I will not agree that this is the right answer. But I will say that it is something that we need to be careful of. For groups who allow the separation of the youths, and squabble the details of their faith, please note that it is difficult for an intelligent mind to take.
Of course I’ve never understood why any religion must be forced on the young or the old. If it is truth and meaningful and accurate, then I think that so many will go to it. Does it always have to feel like a war? The church with the most followers wins? I guess in the end, money and power are the true gods.
Norman Doering wrote:
“It may be none of those things. It may have just been bad brain chemistry. No human being or human group’s behavior may be to blame. Thousands of kids are treated far worse and never go on suicidal shooting sprees.”
I agree. That’s why I mentioned that he might have been “cracked”. When you mix the bad brain chemistry with all of the other factors, you get a volatile cocktail that has the potential of exploding.
As I said in my post, I knew Matthew and considered him a friend…not too close of a friend since I didn’t know that much about him, but I’m guessing that was part of his ultimate problem. He knew a lot of people, but nobody really knew him.
It should be noted that virtually every one of these shooters like Matthew Murray were taking antidepressants or similar psychotropic drugs. This includes recent Omaha mall shooter Robert Hawkins, Finland school shooter Pekka-Eric Auvinen, Columbine shooter Eric Harris, Red Lake shooter Jeff Weise, Springfield Oregon’s Kip Kinkel, child killer Andrea Yates, Michigan’s Seth Privacky, Jason Hamilton, and hundreds more. Although all were troubled and depressed, often for years, they lived with their problems and didn’t become killers until after they started taking antidepressants. Many complained of terrible nightmares and persistent suicidal and violent thoughts after that. As many people have already pointed out, Murray could have been helped and this tragedy prevented. There just seems to be something wrong with SSRI-type antidepressants and we need to stop giving them to people. They act too much like LSD, which was the treatment of choice for schizophrenia during the 1950’s. Who now thinks that was good therapy for a suffering person? You have to put out forest fires that are burning but it does no good to try putting them out with gasoline, that only intensifies the fire. That is what antidepressants seem to do. We didn’t see these kinds of mass murder-suicides until after 1988 when Prozac came on the market. Now the more people put on these drugs, the more these shootings occur. How many people on these drugs just go out and kill only one or two people and/or themselves and it never even makes the news anymore. Iraq war vets suffering from Post Tramatic Stress Disorder and police are the next group of people getting put on these drugs and we are seeing them going on killing sprees too. People have suffered depression for centuries and most quietly hanged, drowned or shot themselves. The idea of taking a bunch of people with you when you go is characteristic of the raging nightmare world antidepressants put some people into. Many, many people have taken these drugs and not experienced side-effects to this degree but that does not diminish the tragedy of those who do, and all the innocent people and families that can’t understand how this happens. How many smokers had to die of cancer before society woke up to tobacco’s dangers? These shootings will continue until we recognize what is causing them and start providing real help to troubled people that does not risk doing more harm than good. Efforts to restore a person’s faith or beliefs are often helpful but are wasted if you also put them on antidepressants. Counseling, exercise, sports, diet, nutrition, more sleep, religious involvement, physical work, change of environment or job–all valid proven therapy. Today’s SSRI antidepressants do more harm than good.
Does Matthew ever mention his father? What is the significance of this?
ErnestR wrote:
“It should be noted that virtually every one of these shooters like Matthew Murray were taking antidepressants or similar psychotropic drugs. This includes recent Omaha mall shooter Robert Hawkins, Finland school shooter Pekka-Eric Auvinen, Columbine shooter Eric Harris, Red Lake shooter Jeff Weise, Springfield Oregon’s Kip Kinkel, child killer Andrea Yates, Michigan’s Seth Privacky, Jason Hamilton, and hundreds more. Although all were troubled and depressed, often for years, they lived with their problems and didn’t become killers until after they started taking antidepressants.”
You may be onto something there. However, I’m not sure if your facts are right. I know you have been seriously misinformed when you say:
“They act too much like LSD, which was the treatment of choice for schizophrenia during the 1950’s.”
LSD was never a treatment for schizophrenia. Your information got garbled somewhere in transmission. Researchers believed that the psychedelic state induced by LSD mimicked psychosis, it was called a psychomimetic. A researcher here or there may have given it to a schizophrenic to study the results, but it was never a “treatment of choice.”
While the newer antidepressants may have bad long term consequences no one has foreseen there are thousands upon thousands of people who feel they’ve been helped by them and who never go on shooting sprees.
A disclaimer we all can share: I do not condone Matthew’s final choices. He has caused untold grief for hundreds, and unspeakable pain to the families of those he killed.
However, my heart is touched that there are some who are willing to look past his acts to what illness of heart he may have suffered from.
Social awkwardness, odd mannerisms, shyness, lack of appropriate emotional expression, failure to make eye contact, questioning of “accepted” structures, tendency to have obsessive interests and extreme b/w, inflexible thinking…. these are all the classic signs of autism, which has often been misdiagnosed as schizophrenia/odd/etc.
This neurology does not respond in the typical fashion to ssris. Autism is not healed by exorcism, praying in tongues, or any of the things Matthew submitted to at his church.
Autism with language is often accompanied by significant intellect, however, without the frontal lobe function to plan and organize work, school achievement does not match the actual intelligence.
One episode of “voices” does not a schizophrenic make, especially when he could have been responding defensively to a social gaffe. Many ASD sufferers have a hard time keeping thoughts to themselves and mumble. YWAM has a strong interest in justifying their expulsion of him; this lone incident is an unverified report from that camp.
Not only would this brain structure make theological inconsistencies very disturbing, Matthew, probably, was not able to see Christianity as gray. It was the way to salvation, or the cause of his pain. No middle ground, no understanding of the complexity of both human and corporate natures.
It sounds like he gave his whole zealous teenage self to trying to meet an impossible standard, seeking a wholeness he did not feel, and then rejected it entirely after getting booted from YWAM.
I point this out at risk of further stigmatizing sufferers of ASD. Perhaps it will, instead, engender understanding and accomodation of these differences. I hope so, since I have it, and my mumbling, shy, black and white thinking genius son does. He’s only seven, though, and we hope to show him the compassionate side of church, as best we can.
Matthew, I hope you are safe in the arms of a loving God, whose own son was murdered that you might have a chance to know Him.
Jesus’ first public miracle was to make wine at a wedding where the guests had been drinking for days. Good wine. Don’t try to tell me it was mild, fermented grape juice, either. I hope you are able to choose THIS God.
Jack Denver wrote:
“I agree. That’s why I mentioned that he might have been “cracked”. When you mix the bad brain chemistry with all of the other factors, you get a volatile cocktail that has the potential of exploding.”
Ahh, I misunderstood you. Sorry. I thought you meant the bad experiences “broke” or “cracked” him. If you’re saying that he was born with this defect, this “crack,” then we do agree. From my reading I’m thinking as bad as his reported experiences may seem they may not be to blame. I don’t think the other shooters, like those named by ErnestR: Robert Hawkins, Pekka-Eric Auvinen, Columbine shooter Eric Harris, Jeff Weise, Kip Kinkel, Andrea Yates, Seth Privacky and Jason Hamilton had such life histories. They weren’t home schooled, rejected from missionary school or raised in hyper-religious families. Maybe the one thing they do have in common is use of antidepressants — I don’t know. I’m not sure those claims by ErnestR are right. If they are - that’s where I’d look for answers.
“As I said in my post, I knew Matthew and considered him a friend…”
Then it’s probably more important for you than the rest of us not to jump on any blame bandwagon and try to steer others you know away from such premature conclusions. His parents probably feel guilty as hell and they don’t need fingers being pointed at them.
Norman, no point in quibbling on how much LSD got used to treat schizophrenia in the 50’s. Plenty of Internet evidence to support that it was used for that as well as to treat alcoholism and mental patients for whom other drugs were no help. Hofmann discovered LSD and Sandoz commericalized it, Lilly produced it in the US. Point is it got used to treat mental illness and it was no good. Antidepressants are being used to treat everything from migraine headache to PMS to Post Partum to ADHD. All this does not diminish that virtually every shooter out there like Murray was on SSRI antidepressants before they became shooters. It isn’t just shooters, it is also women being treated for post partum killing their kids while on antidepressants. If you are saying the collateral damage caused by antidepressants is out-weighed by the benefits other people claim, I respectfully disagree with you as would anyone who has been affected by any of these tragedies (Colorado Church shootings, Omaha mall shootings, Red Lake, Columbine, and on and on). You can’t even take the first step in correcting a problem like this until people recognize and accept that antidepressants just might be a large part of the problem here.
How sad. IMO: Matthew was most likely someone who was already mentally handicapped, whether it be moderate depression or severe mental illiness. Add to that being born in to an environment of mental abuse/control, not to mention the possibility of sexual molestation/rape, of course this was a possible outcome. How often does someone act out this way for no reason? Cause and effect.
I do not in any way condone what he did. Im sorry that these families are now struggling with such heart breaking loss, not to mention no one knows if those same families are as radical as Matthew’s. Although, to be frank, after reading about his situation a part of me whats to lift my shoulders in the air, my palms up in the air, and say what did you expect to happen?
My first year out of college I worked at a company based out of Skokie IL who’s upper management and many employees were deaply involved in a cult called the Miracle of Love. Anyone can google it and read about it. It too is based on the idea that “God’s love is the most important thing no matter what” . This “no matter what” included the cult brainwashing people into moving away from their family and friends to other cities or states and not telling anyone of their whearabouts. There are fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters that haven’t heard from their love ones in years and have no clue where they are. Additionally, the lower tiered members fund the cult out of their pocket, the leaders taking every penny for the “betterment of their cause”. There is mental abuse, sexual abuse, and the basic cult effect that has been reported by ex-members who have been fortunate enough to escape. I quit that company within a year. No one ever dared to approach me b/c it was obvious to them that I was not a canidate who would submitt to them in any way. In fact I would have asked for it in writing and taken it to a lawyer.
http://www.rickross.com/groups/miracle.html
What I saw that year though is indescribable. I wasn’t even ever approached by anyone and I am still affected by what I saw. The people who were sucked in and participated in the “week long MOL Seminar” would return to work glassy eyed and lathargic. I saw a self exploring young girl, who couldn’t have older than 21, be completely brainwashed. It was sad and disturbing. I even once confronted her and told her that it wasn’t neccessary to be a part of MOL and that other people can be her friend too. That went no where with her, as she just nodded and changed the subject.
When I think about my experience and then imagine Matthews life from birth until his tragic and desperate end, I am honesty not suprised at what he did. Also, as I live in Colorado, so please realize that I haven’t seen one single news report that addresses these facts. Everything on TV here is about “This poor church overcoming the mean mentally ill boy that dared to do this”. The idea that no one is researching or investigating the true cause of Matthew’s actions and what lead up to it, least of all reporting on it, is just as disturbing to me as what he did. Lets face reality and take responsibility for what is going on around us in the name of God. I seriously doubt God condones treating a child that way nor shooting and killing people in revenge.
Wake up America.
I’m still not sure I understand. I’m trying to discern if this guy was delusional or if there was a factual basis behind his stated motives of revenge and ending oppression.
RE: Comment by Norman Doering — December 12, 2007 @ 12:36 pm
“He was home schooled with online computer courses.”
This was a 24 year old seemingly bright young man not a highschool kid. Was he still enrolled in online college? What was he doing between 18 and 24?
Was he living at home? If so his parents apparently let him be on the internet for 5 hours a day. that doesn’t fit with his claims of nonstop oppression.
He also had enough freedom to collect guns/ammo, post swedish death metal lyrics on the internet, etc.
I read that he and his parents did not belong to the church that he killed at. If his motive was revenge why did he not go after his parents or his own church. For those of you that think he was a victim of something other than metal illness, why would he not target the responsible individuals?
I could be totally wrong but it seems Matthew’s situation bears a resemblance to the VT shooter Cho Seung-Hui. He claimed to have been a victim of something his whole life yet there is no evidence of it. To me he seemed to be a mentally ill man who pitied himself and invented imaginary enemies to justify his attention getting actions.
Regardless of what someone may go through in life, killing innocent strangers is completely unjustified.
I think people’s instincts to wrongly justify a killers actions brings them notoriety and encourages more senseless killings by other cowards.
He was clearly mentally ill, and lived an awkward life. For that I am sorry. But that does not absolve him of guilt. He knew right from wrong. He knowingly chose the wrong path.
He should not by lifted up by atheists or any group as a martyred victim of a fundamentalist religion. If you have spiritual beliefs, his soul should be prayed for and his despicable actions should be publicly ridiculed so that the next man with a gun who can not go on living any longer and wants to end his life, is not encouraged by the media and an enabling public to take innocent lives with him.
PS - That Crowley school paper that someone posted was a fine account, but Matt was quoting an Ozzy song “mr crowley, what goes on in your head” not a book about the man.
Just because he copied song lyrics that used the word “rape” doesn’t make him a victim of rape any more than his stolen song lyrics about praying to satan means that he was a satanist.
But then again I don’t know anything about this other than what I read. I just hope that a solution can be found to senseless killings.
ErnestR,
Can you prove that all those shooters used SSRI antidepressants? Can you support it with some news source or such?
If you can, then I’ll take your theory seriously.
BlackSabbathfan wrote:
“This was a 24 year old seemingly bright young man not a highschool kid. Was he still enrolled in online college? What was he doing between 18 and 24?”
I don’t know. I’m just repeating what other sources say. If you look at his words he himself partly blames home schooling right here in his words above on this site:
“We were either at church or being brainwashed in Christian home school. When we did have free time…we were either forced to pray, read the bible, do chores, or…..well nothing since we were not allowed to do anything. We were all being trained to ‘become the future of Christianity.’ ‘The chosen generation that is going to turn America back to God in these last days.’”
He could be lying or exaggerating. In fact, it feels like an exaggeration.
Norman,
Yes, I can prove every one of those people were on antidepressants and it was majorly reported in the media as such. Do a Google on any single name and with a little looking you will see. This isn’t the forum to go on ad nauseum about proving who was on antidepressants. Are you just hanging out here to defend them? Here’s a quote from a letter I received from Jeff Weise’s aunt who cared for him and gave him his medication each day. “My father and his girlfriend were also killed that day and I was th one who found them dead; I dream about it every night. It has been a very hard and trying 4 weeks…My nephew was on 60 mg’s of prozac a day. They started him on one 20mg pill a day back in May of last year; then about 6 months later they (his doctors) up his dose to two 20mg pills a day, then about 2 to 3 months before everything happened they up the dose once again to make it 60mg’s a day…I spent the whole morning with Jeff talking, joking, laughing, just like any normal day! There was nothing in his actions that gave any warning signs that something very horrible would take place later that day.” There is similar evidence on the Internet or other places to show the same thing happened with all these killers on these drugs. You believe what you want to believe. I don’t thiink even this is going to make a difference to your opinion on the matter. Antidepressants turn some people into killers. Matthew Murray was one of them.
If I may offer an observation based upon the scientific process…
Let’s assume that drug A is taken by millions of people…and let’s assume that it is taken for a reason (e.g. someone has been diagnosed with depression, anxiety, etc).
Let’s also assume that out of that sampling, some number of these patients go on to commit suicide or murder…outcome B
Let’s also assume that a large number of this group see improvement in their condition…outcome C
In order to conclude that Drug A led to outcome B, one would need to have far more data than a handful of situations whereby person X is taking Drug A and commits outcome B.
Keep in mind that drug A was approved using this same method and theoretically wouldn’t pass muster if outcome C hadn’t been prevalent.
To know for sure, one would need to sample the data of those who have committed outcome B without having taken Drug A. If those numbers aren’t much different (assuming one could control for the many many other contributing factors in such an equation) than the number who commit outcome B while taking Drug A, then it is likely that other factors are at play.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not discounting the concern…I am merely suggesting the process to affirm or rebut the assertion would need to approximate this formula to be statistically valid.
I’ll offer an example. Suppose I look at 50 recent murder cases and suppose the lion’s share of the murderers have blond hair. It would not be appropriate for me to assert that blond haired people are apt to be killers. To draw conclusions, one must isolate the causation and rule out most, if not all others which may be involved.
Regards,
Daniel
I also attended a DTS and one other school at YWAM Denver in 2001. My outreach ended in November of 2001, so I probably was at YWAM just a few months before Matt came. I keep thinking about Matthew and I really hurt for him and I feel that the Church failed him terribly. I wish so much that someone at YWAM could have reached out to him and helped him to feel loved and accepted, but evidently that didn’t happen. What an opportunity missed - with what horrible consequences.
I do want to say, however, that what Matthew states about his experiences at YWAM is simply not possible. NO ONE would ever be prevented from participating in an outreach because they are introverted. If that is what Matt was told, it was perhaps because they were trying to be as sensitive to him as possible in telling him he would not be allowed to go. I know Dale Lambert, his DTS leader, as well. He is one of the kindest and gentlest people I have met. If Matt was at that point hearing voices - and responding to those voices - he was not in a place psychologically to do mission work. It would have been irresponsible to allow him to go. Many of the other things that he writes about his YWAM experience are also not possible.
I personally know an individual diagnosed with schizophrenia. She is bright and articulate, but often cannot distinguish reality from imagination. Much of what she perceives as real, simply isn’t. I believe that much of what Matthew says about his childhood is true. But by the time he speaks about YWAM, I believe he is essentially speaking from the perspective of a schizophrenic; reality and unreality are mixed and become difficult to distinguish. We should consider this aspect rather than passing judgment on the organization.
My DTS (which took place approximately one year before Matthew’s) was one of the best experiences of my entire life, and was an integral part of my healing from some devastating life circumstances. I experienced no legalism or authoritarianism in any way. YWAM’s spirit is the opposite of legalistic, nor does it ram theology down anyone’s throat. Quite the opposite! The first teaching at YWAM involves hours spent on how much God loves us. The next is on how we need to love each other. This is what YWAM is about - not about following someone else’s theology without questioning it. Never did I feel that way, though I am a highly independent thinker and very much unafraid to question things others portray as fact.
Again, I can’t say how strongly I feel that the Christian church as a whole really needs to repent for the way that Matthew was treated. We’re supposed to be recognized by our love for one another. Even though his family and upbringing were really messed up, someone should have been able to reach him. I just hope that we can become what we are supposed to be rather than what Matthew experienced. I wish so much he were still alive and that I could somehow show him real love, which is what I think he was looking for and never really found.
Comment by Amy Holmes —
“Again, I can’t say how strongly I feel that the Christian church as a whole really needs to repent for the way that Matthew was treated…someone should have been able to reach him.”
I appreciate your insight into the situation. I don’t see how you can say the church failed him. If he was mentally ill he needed professional medical help. The problem is that you cant force a grown man, which he was, to get that help. Short of a miracle, what did the church do wrong here?
How do you make someone feel accepted who is trying his hardest to shock and outrage people? There is reality and then there is a persons perception of reality. Its possible the only one who couldn’t accept Matt as he was was himself.
Crikey, americans have funny problems. This guy caused what, the death toll of a major highway crash. Over here we have fields where you just have to stick your finger in the soil to touch a piece of a human hip bone. Get out of kindergarten, this world is the place where life is taken a million a pop (in the name of a guy with alzheimers and a ‘vision’).
Every society has the criminals it deserves.
- Albert Camus
I was about ready to take on ErnestR’s claims but my comments got lost. Was I censored? Was it a glitch? I don’t know — but I’ve lost my steam and I’m out of time. So, one more try to see if this thing works.
I feel so sorry for this poor child……he was in so much pain. I understand what he says about the hypocrisy, because in my experience, there is a lot in *many* churches. But it seems he was never given a focus on Jesus alone - who is the only perfect person. I have come to learn the hard way that there is no one perfect on this planet - not one (regardless of what they may say).
But out of this may come good - if only that churches may now understand that there are people crying out (in one way or another) for help, and help them. Not everybody’s “happy face” is real. I think by just making a place where it is safe to express how you feel will go a long way. In the Bible, God didn’t reprimand Job for his negative feelings at all.
As much as I would like to vent my disdain for fundamentalist religion of any flavor, this tragedy is not about religion - this is about mental illness. Matthew Murray’s writing show that he was suffering terribly. Sooner or later, he would have acted out in some way. The rigid belief system in which he was brought up brought about the “perfect storm”, and he acted out in the most bizarre way that he knew. The fact that other mass murders have received so much publicity is a factor, but he would have acted out in some way. The fact that he was able to buy guns and ammunition is a factor, but he would have used something as a weapon. If his experience had been wider, he would have acted out against some other perceived persecutor, or against his family, or against himself.
II live in Colorado, and I have a close relative with a major mental illness. I know this: if the family was trying everything to convince or coerce their son into taking medication without success, they would hit dead end after dead end. They would have been told that since Matthew was an adult, there was nothing they could do. hey would have been told that because Colorado has not funded mental health, the 3 legal criteria for involuntary incarceration (danger to self, danger to others, gravely endangered - meaning unable to function) were ignored, unless the danger was imminent (as in law enforcement observing the person with a gun to his or someone else’s head), nothing would be done. Even if the family, friends, or chat room “aquaintences” had taken the hard road, it could very well have had no effect. The family would have needed the courage to force their way past all these obstacles.
There was only one way to prevent these tragedy, and that is closely monitored medication, to be sure that the right drug is used, and to be sure that medication is being consumed. I agree with the philosophy of The Treatment Advocacy Center - that the seriously mentally ill MUST be treated, for the good of society, as well as the suffering individual. They must be treated against their will if necessary.
Thank you for organizing the information.
I know this family and feel terrible for them as ive already stated. He, in my opinion suffered serious mental disturbances caused by chemistry. It is EXTREMELY common for schitzo-affective disorder of any kind to cause a feeling of constant persecution and extreme “shyness” is THE hallmark for these disorders.
He, in my opinion had the best, most supporting family. The whole family is so nice and giving.
IF his condition was caused by an event in his life, it would have to be something outside the family because his brother is a happy, friendly and a talented piano player. If it were his mum or dad wouldnt his brother also be at least somewhat affected???
He said somewhere that what he had been through was worse than being repeatedly raped. What does thaT mean? How would he know? The point is…he didnt know. He just knew he felt as horrible as anyone possibly could. He tried to think of the worst thing and said that his pain was worse. People feeling true pain inflicted by something usually KNOW that they can not compare theirs to others. But not the mentally ill. He has schitzophrenia-depression written all over.
I feel like his real problem is obvious. If he had been molested he wouldve killed whoever molested him. Period. Perhaps he despised the christian folk …because he felt persecuted by everyone and that was all he was around .And people shouldnt be so judgemental of his parents. They were good people who didnt deserve this. They are in my prayers.
just thought ide let u guys know…i go to new life…an di love it there..God forgives and so do i…i forgave matthew the minute it happened..we are all sinners and capable of making huge mistakes. God loves everyone…i pray for his family…and that somehow through this tradegdy that God WILL be exhaulted…New life has been through alot and still holds strong…it all boils down to…God is STILL God and ALWAYS will be!!!!!!!!! God bless you all!!!!!!!
Maybe the blog guy isn’t publishing further comments but I just want to say a few things…
Of course I feel sad by the events and for the families of the slain and all of the people who have been hurt by this.
I think Christianity has many benefits and that his experiences are not typical of most people’s experiences with the religion.
I definitely think the kid should have gone to a psychiatrist. His medicine was not working. I think he was treated for depression or anxiety but really should have been given a different drug for antisocial disorder or psychotic/ schizophrenic/ paranoid disorders. I’m not a psychiatrist but I think a good one would have figured it out.
When a religious person gets a mental disorder, he or she often will I think be best helped with religiously neutral counseling. This will help that person step back to see what is going on with a different person’s point of view. At the very least, a religious therapist who is not fundamentalist or doesn’t push questionable views is helpful.
I really feel bad for all those involved. I wonder if the members of whatever that band is he talked about whose show he went to feel bad at all.
He was going through an episode and calling for attention. At the point he was at, I think only medication would have helped him or perhaps a miracle (which can be the same in a weird way).
In my previous post, I made the point that everyone has problems. I detailed some of mine in an attempt to further explain that point. I wish I hadn’t because a description of one’s problems is mostly subjective even if you are trying to talk about it objectively. You have to move on and not focus on the negative. Good things can come out of bad, etc.
I hope in some way one of my posts will help somebody. If they are not published, so be it. Sometimes it is better to be quiet.
Okay first of all I do not go to any church at the moment BUT I do believe in god. Second matthew had experienced some disturbing things, his life was ruined by his parents and his church. He was not allowed to play games, watch tv, use a computer, or experience things that other kids get to. His parents were religious fanatics with this so called “new life church” and beat him for his “sins”. for the religious people SHUT IT! nobody wants to hear about your church or what you forgave. back to the topic at hand, if he was subjected to these things he might have well turned out to be an outstanding person with a family and friends.
His parents were religious and morally degrading, they might have locked him up in the closet until his “sins” were “cleansed”. he had to be PATTED DOWN! WTF I never get patted down except by the cops.
seriously his parents had a problem.
“gamer” has no idea what he is talking about and surely is completely unknown by the family. Why are you all so judgemental to the church and parents when it is obviously a mental condition. as i said before, why is his brother hunky dory?
Maybe the reason why Matthew’s brother Chris os hunky dory simply lies in the fact that he was the Golden Boy. Perhaps he fits the “image” of the perfect son physically, socially, intellectually, emotionally, spiritually. In our society those who resemble the “Pretty People” get the special treatment. I have only seen one picture of Matthew and he looks geeky with big glasses on his little face. Parents can show favortism perhaps without realizing it. Or even realizing it.
I am a single parent who has been a believer most of my life. My child and I are shunned by the pretty people at chruch. My exhusband started viscous lies about me that the small communities we live in choose to believe. Gossip, slander, and favortism are very destructive sins within the body of Christ. Unlike Matthew, I am confident in who I am in Chirst. I know the reason why I suffer persecution from my very own brothers and sisters in Christ. Matthew hit the nail on the head when he described how the pretty people were accepted and how he wasn’t considered one of them. So much for judge not lest ye be judged also. Matthew was judged, avoided, left out and persecuted to the point of insanity. He couldn’t take it anymore and he said so. Yet he tried desperately to have the sense of belonging that everyone deserves.
To those of you who have to justify the evils of favortism, with mental disorders, you probably have the kid who is favored on the soccer team, or favored at the recital, faviored by the teacher, or favored iin some fashion or another. It is so easy for you to label those you judge as wacko. Until society starts taking responsibility and accountability for the bullying behavior of yourselves, your children, and your leaders, the problem will go unresolved. Verbal, emotional, and physical abuse is destroying our society. And it is a crime that goes unpunished.
May God have mercy on us all.
I really hope the FBI profilers take a close look at this. Many charismatic churches and homeschoolers lean towards hyperspirituality and cultic tendencies. NO doubt about it.
If there is someone out there who has some nsight into all this I sure hope they come forward and tell the truth.
Ironically, my name is Matthew Murray - and ironically further my sister was at YWAM Denver and knew the shooter. I also was involved with YWAM for 3 years in Australia, and I met and conversed with Peter Warren the Director of the Denver base. He was one of my favorite speakers and a kind man (he bought us all lunch as he was teaching on Worship).
I had a good and bad experience with YWAM. The particular base I was at was very extreme, considered controlling and work oriented. My conclusion is that YWAM is a great organization, which does many great things in the big picture. However, in my experience YWAM isn’t particularly good at dealing with personal rejection feelings, and social ineptness. Even though there are good intentions, and a loving atmosphere, one can easily get lost in the community of “cool” people, and find no acceptance. I too felt this, but eventually overcame this struggle and in turn benefited from great friendships.
I feel like the body of Christ (the church) has neglected the feelings of the rejected. The human nature is attracted to the dominant, cool people which most circles form their social relationships around. We must not conform to these human principals and give love and acceptance to the broken, and the weak.. They are the ones who need it the most - especially in this case.
The thing that gets me about this is everybody seems so quick to blast the fundamental christian community. As if it is their fault that somehow a person wielded his wrath upon innocent people. People say nothing about the vile lyrics of songs, the vile videos they are watching, the vile teachings of their leaders. Somehow its always the oppression of christianity, and never the oppression of rock music, and never the oppression of follow your sinful heart and choose your own lonely path. Loneliness is a killer. Why is Jesus Christ blasphemed for the inadequacies of people?
Love conquers all, and love is not always getting what I want. I dont for one minute believe the softest words spoken with anothers gain is love. I do believe the harshest words spoken for my gain is love for me. Greater love hath no man then this that he lay down his life for his friend. Jesus Christ gave his life for the world even as we the world riducled and depised him, and in his death he said Father forgive them for they know not what they do. Going on a revenge streak and acting out my rage on others is not love, nor is it justifiable in any form no matter the circumstances. Say what a person wants Jesus laid down his life for the sin of the world, and is risen ever making intercession for sinners. Only Jesus love frees a person. When a person understands that their most vile thought and action are forgiven because Jesus Died for them, and they are free, where is revenge? Why go killing as I think he might put it, “blind oppressive people”? Why not rather suffer the wrong and praise Jesus that atleast they have a real true friend there, who will never leave them nor forsake them, even if the whole world is gone crazy.
Thanks, Wally.
Contextually, a graphic example of “thought stopping” as practiced by a cult member is very valuable.
Don’t be too hard on The Beaver, now.
It’s really funny in a way…
I spent two years in an intense ministry like YWAM (this one is called Teen Mania, based in Garden Valley, TX) and I am now involved with a mission in Europe called Jesus Revolution. I grew up in the Pentecostal/Charismatic world.
And I totally can not relate to Mathew.
I have never once felt rejected because I was not ’social’ enough. When I first decided to become a Christian at the age of 13 I was very socially immature and all the leaders did was to help me and love me and I actually became better able to interact with society - including those who do not share my beliefs.
I don’t know much about YWAM or New Life Church - at least, not anything outside of the news. I did meet one family from that church when I was a part of a road crew for Teen Mania and while it was a little different - they REALLY liked protein shakes, LOL - they seemed alright. Of course, I was only there for 2 days.
What I’m trying to say is that I have been very involved in evangelical Christianity and I have never heard someone claim that it had a negative affect that knew me. My mom even gave her life to Jesus Christ and became a Christian because of the emotional stability and compassion and positive change she had seen in me.
So I just want to encourage all of you out there: Don’t judge CHRIST by Mathews writings. I will not judge him - God knows his heart, his soul and all of that and that is left up to him - but I think he didn’t experience the reality of who Christ. I would also ask you not to judge Mathew’s family, for God is not a God of condemnation. The reality is none of us really know if Mathew’s writings are true.
Of course I absolutely do NOT condone what Mathew did in the least. But we must remember:
I John 4:8 God is LOVE.
So please don’t judge Christ - and christian fellowship - by negative experiences someone has had. People often do things in the name of God that God himself would abhor. Instead, if you’re curious about Christianity, you can email me:
only_dreamers_see@yahoo.com
or you can read the new testament for yourself.
Wally and Robyn:
One of the largest protestant denominations believes that Jesus did not die for the whole world, and that He maybe didn’t even die for you. When you have studied enough to understand which Bible verses this belief is based on, and when it hits you that this belief just might be correct, but where do you turn to find out if it is true or not, you might begin to understand the confusion Matthew experienced and the “truth” that is at the base of the song lyrics condemning modern christianity. Not all christians believe as you do. Yet these other christians who believe differently think they are going to heaven. And some of these others christians think that you probably aren’t going to go to heaven because you don’t believe what they do.
Where is the reference point that will tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt which one of the conflicting denominational beliefs is “correct” and the rest are wrong? When you truely come to understand that there is no agreed-upon reference point (denominations use the Bible to condemn each other), you will begin to understand the basis of the despair of Matthew and the writers of the lyrics he quotes. But if you never learn anything other than what your own group believes, you will never come to know that there truely is a basis for despair among people who think for themselves.
Which religious group is correct, and upon what authority are they judged correct? Emerging minds need thoughtful adults with whom they can discuss all of the possible answers to these two questions. Matthew seems to not have found within his “christian” sphere any such adults who would take him and his questions seriously. For this failure, christians can rightly be condemned. “Don’t think, just believe” is not a useful response to bright kids.
PK - I like what you said. Ignorance is bliss. If you are surrounded by people of one particular thought amalgation, as in a church or many Christian groups, you will not see the opinions of others and start accepting the doctrines of that church as the truth even though they are questionable by the entire church at large. E.g., on baptism, repentance, atonement, sanctification, charismatic “gifts”, different aspects of grace, whether you can lose salvation, women’s roles, etc.
I still think the kid had mental problems and the church was simply the context for which he expressed them. In other words, if he had been brought up in a family that was not religious but instead were really great dancers, he may have felt ostracized by the dancing world and eventually kill himself and some others. That does not poo poo his thoughts and ideas. I think we owe it to him to at least think about the pain that he was feeling, whether we feel it or not. There is no doubt he was feeling pain. Sometimes it is the majorly depressed I think who see things most clearly. … Ignorance is Bliss.
It has always been interesting the relationship between people and the “church,” or a local congregation or group of adherents to a particular belief set. I think that relationship can in some ways be similar to the connection between an individual and any other group, like for example the cast members in a play. People feel isolated and so on. A zealous fundamentalist Christian may be ostracized by a group of cast members but then at his or her church, be emulated. A cast member who is the lead may be honored in that setting but in a church people will ask him if he is “saved” and question his salvation and tell him how bad hell is and you don’t want to be separate from God for eternity do you? This of course drives some people away from the church and then ties some people closer to it. And while the people in the church talk about “love”, I have found manytimes that it is the friends outside of the church (who may or may not be Christian) that I can best rely on for being nonjudgemental and for generally considering me okay at all times. Because the church has a set of beliefs, some questionable, that people are supposed to abide by whereas friends’ mores are more simple.
I have been touched by this story and to a lesser extent the one of Ricky Rodriguez as I guess I was as well with the Columbine shootings. It seems that people these days have access to weapons more in the past of greater destruction. At least going back to the gold rush or maybe the civil war era. As people used to kill themselves and no one else, more now are taking people with them to make some kind of point. Someone who will do that in definition is dangerous to himself or others and then mentally unbalanced.
However, when you speak of revolutionaries, as perhaps Ture Salvatore in Sicily or in the American revolution, that is more in the context of a war. In wars, innocent civilians are killed either accidentally and on times on purpose as well. I think it is possible for a revolution to start with situations like this and then you can question if the person is mentally ill or not. If you live in a fascist state and fight back, does that make you mentally defective or perhaps mentally strong? In this kid’s case, his actions are not redeemable and he was mentally deficient.
In the case of 9/11, the act was an act of war. We think the people involved were also mentally insane probably. Or at least different. Or weak as they attacked defenseless civilians. So the leaders of the USA declared war on different groups in different countries in retaliation and for other reasons I am not clear on (like better access to oil maybe). That probably causes more retaliation from the other side and the fighting will not stop until all of the leaders of one side are killed or incarcerated. I don’t in any way think that shooting people as a soldier for the US means you are insane. However, I think the battles will leave lasting impressions on the people involved which can be classified as PTSD or depression or something else. There is a lot of war going on everywhere and a lot of fighting. I really think we should get out of Iraq and Afghanistan and go back to a defensive posture and work on the economy, education, health care, and other domestic issues. Maybe with the next President we will do that. And we need to make access to weapons less easy for the mentally deficient and somehow make this country and this world safer. Because people will continue to copy the acts of others until we do so.
PK
I dont think I will ever understand the vile lyrics he was quoting. As I read them they make it very very clear where they are from, and what they are, and what their purpose is. Reading them I can understand why anybody would go crazy enough to rape, and kill people. They are vile and their only purpose is to confuse and destroy people, as we have witnessed in the multiple cases that were previously written about.
I dont believe the denominational churches or other beliefs are ever going to agree. The heart is decietful beyond measure and desperately wicked, who can know it. When you are dealing with people they are going to twist and turn and lie about everything, but that still doesnt change the fact that these people who killed innocent people were carrying out their revenge, their wrath, their despair upon people they despised because their heart was wicked. It still doesnt change the fact that in our advanced information age, our so called intellectual society, we still have a very decietful heart, that desperately needs help, and true love. True love that is for that individuals gain, and without strings attached in any way. I am not talking about tolerance, I am talking about love, care, concern, compassion, and giving of ones self for others. Were any of these shooters displaying these attributes? Maybe the fastest way to kill depression is to begin to give of ones self to others for their benefit, without reward, rather then put them on another drug, or exalt their poor condition, and say well they are just incapable, and useless, or they are this way because of those people, or that group.
There isnt one perfect person in this world. I think he saw this and was desperately looking for a person who was. He couldnt cope with the fact that all fall short, and all are sinners. When a person gains the attitude that even though we all fall short, and even though you persecute me I forgive you and love you, and am going to give of myself for you, because you just dont understand that we are all fallen short and blind to the fact, or you are weak and cannot help the fact, I dont believe they will have any more room for depression.
2 quick points)
1) If YWAM was such a legalistic and horrible place - why are there so many YWAM missionary kids with tattoos/piercings etc… Clearly the ministry is open to people of ALL types.
2) One of the shooting victims, Dan Griebenow, was homeschooled for part of his education. He IS NOT introverted, is plenty able to socially interact, and sings in a death-metal type band (Christian) and has many tattoos/piercings.
Just goes to show that Murray’s generalizations can not be true.
This really the last thing im writing on here i feel terrible for the family especially after speaking with. To gain something or to understand something i suppose is of no value when all one wants to do is blame…
People really want to blame this family and the church and it is so hurtful and unfair for this wonderful family. They are so great i really want to stick up for them.
Perhaps something he wrote was true. I honestly believe that maybe some small fragment was based in reality but i can tell you from personal knowledge that he was not the sheltered soul he acted as. He could watch movies, go on the internet, go to parties and listen to obcene music. I cant even believe im saying this it seems so silly to say something so obvious…he had a career and was intelligent.
He couldve moved out if hed wanted…I feel so sorry for him because i have no doubt he felt alienated and alone. But im afraid it was most likely due to a mental disorder. I know the things hes said about his parents are not true but maybe he believed them as is common with schizo-affective disorders to feel constantly persecuted. (um, many claimed he talked to his other voices-if that doesnt say mental problem what does?)
Im only saying…before you judge people maybe actual knowledge of the subject would be appropriate…They lost their child! What is worse? And everone wants to put them in this most miserable state even further! I can not believe it…
I think what one person said was right on..if they had been dancers then he wouldve felt alienated by the dance world…I do hope god has mercy on his soul because i dont believe he was evil. I believe his brain was not properly working…so so sad.
To Jay: Thank you. Its important to get out some actual information about the situation to inform the open minded about what is the true cause of this tragedy. Mental illness.
To Wally: “Reading them (the song lyrics) I can understand why anybody would go crazy enough to rape, and kill people.”
Really?
You think song lyrics can cause a person to commit atrocity? You read them, what did they cause you to do? Oh, nothing? I’m not condoning them, they are silly, immature and meant to shock people like you. Thats why Matt posted them. To get attention and sympathy. Just like all of his posts.
Thanks for posting this, it provides an eye opening insight into the mind of a tortured young man
Sometimes it is the majorly depressed I think who see things most clearly. …
Someone who is well-versed in issues surrounding personality formation, intellect, and mood states said this exactly opposite (I don’t recall the name at the moment)…
Sometimes it is the ones who see things most clearly who are the most majorly depressed - and rightly so.
Wally said: their (lyrics) only purpose is to confuse and destroy people
As I’ve pointed out above, a different interpretation is also plausible - the lyrics reflect the pain and confusion felt by the author. The lyrics then get quoted by people who relate to that pain and confusion. Lyrics don’t generally affect people who cannot relate to the lyrics, so I don’t see how lyrics can confuse and destroy. These lyrics only attract those who are already confused and destroyed.
We all have people in our lives who at some point may need something from us which we cannot give them. That is part of the human condition - the inability to be perfect. My comments about Matthew not seeming to find anybody who could answer his questions about which theology is correct was not meant to reflect poorly on his church or his parents or his peer group. I was simply acknowledging that a) facing up to the inconsistencies in life can create significant existential pain, b) folks who are not well socialized have little to distract them from (or buffer them from) coming face to face with the facts of life’s inconsistencies, and c) Matthew seemed to be suffering considerable existential pain caused by confronting life’s inconsistencies (because he couldn’t use social activities as a buffer?). If church heavyweights haven’t been able to resolve their differences for 2000 years over the question “what must I do to be saved” (or liked by you?), I certainly don’t hold his parents or church or peer group responsible for not being able to answer Matthew’s questions to his satisfaction. But, likewise, this points out the danger of claiming that we have all the answers when in fact there are questions we cannot answer.
We can offer our denominational dogma as proof that we have answered all questions. But there is another denomination quite willing and able to prove with scripture that you have answered the questions wrong. The question still stands, whether we want to admit to it or not - and it is causing quite a bit of problem for those willing to face the question head-on - where is the standard by which we can judge the truth when denominations can successfully use the Bible to condemn each other?
My pastor was visiting the church and was in the congregation that Sunday morning. He is grateful for the difference that an alert security guard can make.
4 down, a whole lot more to go.
I hope more people stand up like poor Matthew Murray, and cast off oppression against them in any way they can, especially when it is in their own home.
Probably better if he stood up to his own family though, first. They are the ones that inflicted this life on him.
I grew up in a very very traditional religious family and was homeschooled my entire life. My parents are respected Church and community members, and my mother is a sort of homeschooling guru. People love my family, and admire my parents. And they have no fucking clue about what it is like to be a member of the family. I am messed up, my sisters and one of my brothers are all messed up. Don’t know about the youngest 6 kids yet, they aren’t old enough for problems to be obvious. Religion and homeschooling can be good depending on the details, but they can also be fucking evil, even while the parents are maintaining the public image and receiving approval from others.
I don’t know if everything Matthew said was true. But I do know that my life has had similarities to what he said his life was, and those similarities are a huge part of why I have severe mental problems, such as a lifetime of self-injury.
When will people realize that anger is ultimately wasteful? Regardless of whether your religious or atheist, it should be obvious that little comes of anger, and the violent exponents of the same. I know that in many ways it’s a simple biological carry-on from our primal mind, but surely we can move beyond it?
You missed one. Go back to the first site - nghtmrchld26’s site - and look for a thread about the church & condoms. His description of his church’s stance on dating is pretty disturbing.
I think you guys said it best, Ignorance is bliss. I have never been a promoter of “dont think just believe.” That is one of the attributes of a cult. I personally like to think and ponder things, and am very interested in truth. That being said I dont believe you really are so intellectual and really search out with your whole being the truth. As much as you defend this killers motives, and condemn the church and his parents, I think maybe you need a fresh look on this issue here. What really caused this killer to kill? What really made him so bitter? What really made him so angry, that he reached an uncontrollable state of mind? What made him find his comfort in those vile lyrics, that fueled his depression even more? What made him hate his parents? What made him desire to do things behind his parents back? What caused him to lie about it when confronted with the facts? What made him desire to fill his mind with the media he chose? What caused him to behave in the way that he chose? Was it his desire to give of himself for the benefit of another? Was it his desire to be free from his condition?
Was it his desire to be like Jesus? Was it his desire to show his love for his parents? Was it his desire to show his love for people in general? Was it an act of love, or selfishness? Were his actions based on love or hate? Perhaps this is a good starting point. Do you think what he did was good or bad? And do you really believe the church and his parents forced him into the mindset he chose?
I am shocked by those lyrics. They did their job well. They do influence people, and I can say this not only by my own observations, but by the very words that come out of the mouths of the people who sing them. Plato said in his Republic, “the introduction of a new kind of music should be shunned as imperiling the whole state” Plato begged the legislature to ban all music of an effeminate and licentious character for “It will destroy our nation”, he said. Henry David Thoreau made this statement, “Music may be intoxicating. It has helped cause the destruction of the Greek and Roman Empires, and it will sooner or later destroy America and England.” Music moves people, causes them to speed up or slow down, whistle, tap a foot, or maybe just soften up to something. One of the guys from ICP said to the parents of this nation that they were “Influencing your children.” Yeah it does definitely influence people.
What really caused this killer to kill?
Probably the same thing that has motivated marauding bands of males to pillage and loot villages and even entire countries for thousands of years. Men have been killing each other for their own reasons since Cain and Able. Matthew and others like him killed for the same fundamental reasons why the Vandals and the Visgoths and others like them killed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals
Bottom line now, and probably then, is likely to be this: socialization provides a distraction to the existential pain of life. The pretty folks and others who are socially adept (and behave in order to not lose the needed approval of others) are less likely to be forced to think through life’s inconsitancies, and therefore are less likely to feel existential pain and feel a need to act out. But do you think this really explains why marauding bands of Vandals and Visgoths pillaged and killed for thousands of years? What difference do you think it might have made throughout history if all Vandals and Visgoths, and all others like them, had been castrated and had their testosterone count reduced to zero? If you know little or nothing about biology, your answer doesn’t count. (Does that statement make you feel excluded? Is that statement inspiring you to immediately post a counter-statement? If, “yes”, then hmmm .
This life thing is quite a bit more complicated than you are admitting to, Wally.
hhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm all of you including me should stop talking about all this and check our own eyes to see if there’s any boogers the size of a log in them. Whats done is done…let God be the judge, and the one to sort out the truth. The question is what is happening in your own lives? Are you honouring your parents? Are you Loving your kids? Do YOU really know who Jesus is and what he thinks?
I am not trying to make an excuse for Matthew Murray either. However, I am sure he did not just wake up some morning and decided to commit those acts. This is, just as I thought a lengthy process that lead to the events. What I think lead to this tragedy was the fact that Matthew was sent home from a camp he belived would serve the Lord and he would do a lot of good. It appears to me that the leaders of this camp abused their positions and tried to get rid of a “troublemaker” who questioned them. What added “fuel to the fire” was the church ignoring him instead of reconciliation and healing. I suspect that many churches have such “leaders” who do whatever they please and lie to the congregation about it. I have experienced this first hand where I caught a pastor of a church in a lie and to cover it up, he libeled and slandered me. That pastor and the President of the council even went as far as filing a false police report. The leaders of that church are not interested in reconciliation either but I put my trust in God and let him take care of it.
What Murray writes is not only very sd, tragic but alos wholly dishonest. This man was aseriously delusional. I know the Murray family indirectly (Matthew’s dad is a doctor some of my freinds go to and whom I’ve met. His Dad is a loving, gentle man. His family was a loving family. I also have been to DSI at New Life church and it is not as he said it is and neither is YWAM, having visited tehre before, and having freinds who went to DTS there. Absolute rubbish about the sex acts, drugs, etc. Again, iI know this is untrue so I highly, highly doubt his mother ever raped him (as he alludes too particualrly in one of those above postings) nor were people as terrible as he thought! Matter of a fact the love and grace at New Life is amazing. They didn’t even condemn Ted Haggard after he left but prayted for his family. They are praying for Murray’s family. There is no hatred at all. Teh only hatred and demons espoused was coming from the delusions of Matthew. He was a very tormeted soul it appears. I know people tried to help but hwat else can one do. He wanted to rebel, it was all about him and his world. He sowed to hate adn dark lyrics etc, adn reaped the hatred. Very, very sad. He made his bed and chose to lie in it.
This entire tragedy is very unfortunate. I was friends with Matthew Murray for a brief period a few years ago when I was attending a Young Adult group at His Love Fellowship church in Denver, Colorado. I’ve personally had a lot of horrible experiences at different churches growing up but I never felt the need to try and play God. I want to say that there were plenty of people at HLF church who tried to reach out to him and be his friend but it was very difficult if not almost impossible to interact with Matthew on a personal level. I know that on some levels I’ve felt guilty for maybe not doing enough to be more of a friend to Matthew but I have come to realize said feelings of guilt are only lies of the enemy. I thank God for delivering me from myself every day I am alive. I use to write a lot of poetry that mirrors those of Mr. Murray but now I am surrounded by a cloud of not only witnesses, but loving, caring people who walk with me on this journey called life. I have a desire to reach out to those who are hurting inside, broken up emotionally and mentally. No one is trash, no one is garbage. God loves everyone. I truly believe that. It has taken awhile for me to understand God’s love for me. My life has been a journey full of deep hurt and pain, sorrow, grief, bitterness and even hatred towards others. I got to a place in my life where I knew if I went any further I would go beyond the point of no return. I had a decision to make and I chose Jesus. It’s not easy. To have sincere Christian people in my life who tell me repeatedly they can’t solve all my problems and there’s no magic wand to wave but that God loves me and they’re willing to walk this journey with me means everything to me. I have accountability. I have friendship. I know how to keep it real. In my point of clarity I realized I had to forgive myself as much or more than I had to forgive others. I am not a victim…God is my victor…everyday. I feel for Pastor Phil Abeyta, Isadore Lucero and Jim Wurst. Although I never really knew Matthew’s parents I know they loved him. I love Phil’s messages, especially because they’re never boring. He always makes me laugh. May God bless him and comfort Matthew’s family in this time and forever. I also lift up the families of the shooting victims at YWAM-Arvada and New Life church in Colorado Springs. May God bring you His peace and a spirit of stillness in the depths of your soul(s). May we all continue to reach out to a hurting, dying world, especially those within our immediate reach.
I don’t mean to blab but I also want to say that I grew up in a uber strict Independent Baptist home and slowly gravitated towards the way I carry myself as a Christian today.
I presently attend a church named Scum of the Earth. From a very young age I never adopted my dad’s extremely legalistic religious views on Christianity or how non-believers should be treated. I grew up with a lot of questions because my father and I never really agreed on anything. At the present time I also volunteer for Dry Bones Denver, an organization in Denver that seeks to build friendships with homeless youth and young adults in the Denver area. I have learned through this volunteerism that people are not projects. God has really begun a great work in my heart by bringing people into my life who have taught me that God loves EVERYONE, not just me. I believe that being involved with a church like Scum of the Earth and a ministry like Dry Bones Denver has helped me realize that we must be intentional in our interactions with others. I must be vulnerable and willing to invest in the lives of others to truly be a friend. True Christianity is about building relationships, loving others and letting those same people know I’m not perfect but I am willing to walk alongside another person during this journey we call life. I don’t have all the answers but I do have friendship. True Christianity isn’t about religious posturing or being a fake. I have no desire to be a drive-by believer.
I came across his posts on that forum as well and I don’t think it explains at all what he did. I only recently became a Christian but I’ve seen that 99% of what people said about Christians or that belief system was way off-base - not even close to the truth. Much of what I personally said, included.
Those are the remarks of an angry, angry man who refused to accept how the world is, and that people are broken, fallen, hypocritical, etc. No excuse for killing innocent people, ever.
christians are the leaders of shirking responsibility for their actions- their psychosis is the result of actual biological reactions TRICKING them into feeling good about FALSE STORIES- anyone with an understanding of neurobiology would know this- in due time science will have enough evidence to unequivocally prove this- THEN watch how many of you fanatics flip a lid and prove your hypocrisy when you can’t deal with the cognitive dissonance.
most social structures are pyramidal hierarchies based on philosophies written for slave owners, for people who wanted lordship over Servants; people who become blissfully happy as slaves are both ignorant and delusional, out of touch with reality and perfectly obedient to their demons- people like this kid snap because they’re in a world of self proclaimed self righteous hypocrites who put a gun (metaphorically, ALL government is justified by the gun, and most government founded on religious servitude) to someone’s head and DEMAND obedience and conformity. these Truths are undeniable except the the deluded faithful who refuse to accept responsibility for the “evil” they see around them.
when the majority takes up the “social contract,” they sign the dotted line and ASSUME responsibility for EVERY INDIVIDUAL within the social structure. WHY? because they use a gun to force obedience and conformity TO THAT SYSTEM! lmao…and you dullards are shocked when the “rebel” grabs a gun and forces conformity to reality, subsequently sending believers to the only Real place they’ll go- the ground.
I knew Matthew Murray. He attended our congregation for three years and his comment was that he was having trouble at home. Our congregation is fairly liberal and belongs to the National and World Council of Churches. We are probably the “cult” group his parents say he belonged to. As far as I could tell, he had a very warped home life. I once telephoned his house and the person who answered said, “Just a minute!” I could hear voices in the background for twenty minutes and Matthew said that they never let him know that he had a call.
I just listened to a Focus on the Family Broadcast with Matthew Murray’s parents who were there with the parents of the 2 sisters that were killed at New Life Church (The Works Family). It was a very touching and moving broadcast. Very emotional. The forgiveness that the Works Family and YWAM has expressed to the Murray’s is incredible! Only Jesus could work in this way. I was, however, extremely disappointed to hear the Murray parents. They were very soft-spoken, seemingly (at first) humble people. Right away, though, you knew something wasn’t right with them. Matthew’s Dad is a well-known, highly respected physician (neurologist) and his mom is a Bible Study Leader at their Church. She also homeschooled Matthew for most of his life. The Works family was incredibly humble and transparent. Of course, because they had nothing to hide. The Murray family, however, communicated defense. They’re very coy, intelligent people so they know how to communicate a contrite spirt, but it just seemed that they were “sorry they were caught”. Sorry that their names were smeared due to the unspeakable behavior of their son. It made me grieve even more for Matthew. They humbly and quietly pointed their fingers the entire time at ADHD, medication, social settings, friends or the lack of. I don’t know these people, but I know they had a huge platform to give warning to other parents. Why couldn’t they have offered advice on what they were doing wrong or things they wish they would’ve done differently. When they wept during their interview on the broadcast, it didn’t sound like they were griving for their son. It sounded like they were grieving for their embarassment.
Thank you for posting this information. Unfortunately, Matthew only reported the truth of what he had witnessed, I have seen the same thing and I have been a “teacher” in these churches. The Word says the FEAR of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, Matthew was confused when confronted with the hypocrisy of people “professing” Christ as their Lord but living with no fear of the Lord. Unfortunately, many of our leaders are wolves, one must exercise discernment. How many of these “professing” “Christians”, how many of us, are the self-deluded “Christians” confronted by Jesus in Matthew 7:13-29?
Fear God before you say anything, because you are going to be held accountable before Him for whatever you say. You actually are going to be judge by the words of your mouth.